Manny would have been a HOF fighter without Freddy

[Khalid X]

I really believe if Manny and Roach had never met, Manny would still have become a multi division champ. (Heres why)

Manny came to Freddy raw but talented, he'd gotten that far on sheer guts, heart and incredable talent.
All you have to do with a guy like Manny is give him little bits, step back and watch him do it his way.

Don't get me wrong, I like Freddy. I think Freddy is one of if not the best trainers today. And yes, he's taken Manny further with than without him.(True)
But just looking at Manny, and how good he was raw. Imagine any good trainer getting ahold of this guy, with his sheer ability Manny would be just as if not better than he is now.

Game planning and prep are 2 different things I know, but I'm speaking on just talent alone.
All Manny needed before Roach was the simple ABCs of boxing, Roach saw this I'd bet.
So Mannys talent helps Freddy seem better than he really is.

It's easy to have a champ handed to you, but what if you're handed something not so talented?
Has Freddy ever really molded and made a champ out of any fighter?

The answer is yes he would have been a HOF without Roach but not an ATG.

Manny was a lineal champ at 19 before Roach and no doubt would have beaten Ledwaba for his second lineal with or without Freddie. I also think he would have beaten Barrera because Roach hadn't had him for a while and he was still raw as hell.

Roach took him to another level by making him one of the most skilled fighters in boxing along with improving his footwork, counterpunching, combination punching, right hand, and overall boxing IQ.

So without Roach....he would still be a hall of famer.....but not an ATG and top P4P fighter he is today.

[the gent]

I really believe if Manny and Roach had never met, Manny would still have become a multi division champ. (Heres why)

Manny came to Freddy raw but talented, he'd gotten that far on sheer guts, heart and incredable talent.
All you have to do with a guy like Manny is give him little bits, step back and watch him do it his way.

Don't get me wrong, I like Freddy. I think Freddy is one of if not the best trainers today. And yes, he's taken Manny further with than without him.(True)
But just looking at Manny, and how good he was raw. Imagine any good trainer getting ahold of this guy, with his sheer ability Manny would be just as if not better than he is now.

Game planning and prep are 2 different things I know, but I'm speaking on just talent alone.
All Manny needed before Roach was the simple ABCs of boxing, Roach saw this I'd bet.
So Mannys talent helps Freddy seem better than he really is.

It's easy to have a champ handed to you, but what if you're handed something not so talented?
Has Freddy ever really molded and made a champ out of any fighter?

There is a reason why Fighters have a "team" around them. Not the hanger-ons, the entourage, the leeches, but the people who serve a purpose. Name me one fighter that did it on their own?

Let's say he did this with some other trainer, would that trainer also be lucky because he has a talented fighter?

At what point do people get credit for their part in the process?

I get what you're trying to suggest, but it is really just another attempt to discredit someone's achievements.

[cixthree]

wrong..jordan wouldnt have 6 rings without scottie pippen

True, I'm not saying he would. But he'd have been just as good (Talent wise)

[Khalid X]

Roach is also an excellent match maker.

you mean Bruce Trampler........

Roach doesn't pick Manny's opponents.

Trampler is the best matchmaker in boxing....and probably the best in the past 50 years or so.

Haven't you noticed that guys like Oscar, Cotto, Lopez, Morales, Pacquiao and others that have developed huge buzzes under Top Rank all while being involved in tons of epic fights?

[cixthree]

There is a reason why Fighters have a "team" around them. Not the hanger-ons, the entourage, the leeches, but the people who serve a purpose. Name me one fighter that did it on their own?

Let's say he did this with some other trainer, would that trainer also be lucky because he has a talented fighter?

At what point do people get credit for their part in the process?

I get what you're trying to suggest, but it is really is just another attempt to discredit someone's achievements.

For arguments sake, lets say his trainer (other than Freddy) did infact look out for Manny in the same way Freddy does..
Ok, lets use your vision.. Put Manny with the team he has now (Insert any other trainers name here, other than Freddy Roach), now tell me if he'd be just as good.

Mannys skill is his talent, his basic boxing skills are not constantly followed. But his improv of the basics are constant.
You get what I mean?

All Manny needed was a good trainer (any good trainer) and he'd still be HOF...

This is not a discredit at all, look at it like me for a sec.
I'm not saying Freddy is'nt good, I'm saying Manny is that good. Get me?

[LeeVanCleef]

True, I'm not saying he would. But he'd have been just as good (Talent wise)

Let me ask you this: Who would train Pacquiao (if Roach wasn't available at the time) and where would he be from 2001 til today?

I think he'd be good, explosive, but not the dynamo he'll be known for.

[cixthree]

Let me ask you this: Who would train Pacquiao (if Roach wasn't available at the time) and where would he be from 2001 til today?

I think he'd be good, explosive, but not the dynamo he'll be known for.

Very true, I agree. Who would be a good replacement for Roach, that's a good question......
With Mannys style??????????????????????????
I'm gonna think about that one dude... That's a damn good question.

[LeeVanCleef]

Very true, I agree. Who would be a good replacement for Roach, that's a good question......
With Mannys style??????????????????????????
I'm gonna think about that one dude... That's a damn good question.

Remember that Pac didn't participate in Amateurs, especially in the National pool where he might have a better knowledge of fundamentals. In other words, he learned his craft more on the pros, however flawed it may have affected his style.

That trainer would try to de-construct Manny's habits for the meantime then.

[the gent]

For arguments sake, lets say his trainer (other than Freddy) did infact look out for Manny in the same way Freddy does..
Ok, lets use your vision.. Put Manny with the team he has now (Insert any other trainers name here, other than Freddy Roach), now tell me if he'd be just as good.

Mannys skill is his talent, his basic boxing skills are not constantly followed. But his improv of the basics are constant.
You get what I mean?

All Manny needed was a good trainer (any good trainer) and he'd still be HOF...

This is not a discredit at all, look at it like me for a sec.
I'm not saying Freddy is'nt good, I'm saying Manny is that good. Get me?

I get it, but what you are suggesting is that why have a trainer at all?

Trainers don't just do the work at the gym. They also do homework. Watch fights, build a game plan for each fight ect.

If this is not to discredit someone, then i don't understand What it is. Other than you feel Manny doesn't need anyone and is just that good..Ok, but my point is, if it were another trainer, and he did have the same success, will he also be discredited?

Or is it because Freddy is a well known, and now famous trainer?

I just don't get why this hypothetical scenario is even necessary, if not to just discredit someone.

Trust me, i am not a Freddy super fan, but i do feel like a trainer is a huge part of a fighters success even though the fighter brings natural talent.

[cixthree]

I get it, but what you are suggesting is that why have a trainer at all?

Trainers don't just do the work at the gym. They also do homework. Watch fights, build a game plan for each fight ect.

If this is not to discredit someone, then i don't understand What it is. Other than you feel Manny doesn't need anyone and is just that good..Ok, but my point is, if it were another trainer, and he did have the same success, will he also be discredited?

Or is it because Freddy is a well known, and now famous trainer?

I just don't get why this hypothetical scenario is even necessary, if not to just discredit someone.

Trust me, i am not a Freddy super fan, but i do feel like a trainer is a huge part of a fighters success even though the fighter brings natural talent.

No I'm not saying he should'nt or does'nt need a trainer, I'm looking only at his raw talent.
He made it all the way to a belt on raw talent and ability... Imagine Steward or Nacho getting Manny....

As far as a famous trainer, Freddy JUST got mainstream famous. I don't take anything away from Freddy with my observation, I'm jst saying Manny is/was that good