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Do u believe in the phantom punch???

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  • Do u believe in the phantom punch???

    I Don't Believe In The Phantom.
    I have heard so many people claim that Sonny Liston threw the rematch with Ali in Lewiston. Most people, though, seem like they read it somewhere and now parrot whatever they heard some guy say on TV. They say it like it is the FACTS. Even people that have never even so much as seen a tape of the fight like to call it "the phantom punch." One guy told me today that Liston didn't get up, and he threw the fight, because "Liston was scared to death of crazy people and he didn't want to be in there with a crazy man like Ali."

    They say it was a "phantom punch" that felled Sonny.

    Now, anybody that follows boxing even a little bit knows that this guy got that "scared of crazy people" theory from listening to Angelo Dundee give that as his Liston- theory in some Ali special on TV that we all watched. It's just another case of someone hearing something somewhere and repeating it so many times that it becomes accepted as truth.

    Just like with the fight being fixed and every other claim made about that night in Lewiston, I ask this... How do YOU know? Did you know Liston? He confided in you his stance on crazy people? Were you there at the fight? Were you there when they called Sonny on the phone and asked him to take a dive? Did the bad guys call you as soon as they hung up with Sonny to tell you "OK, it's done."

    The best one is when they say "Ali landed a weak punch that couldn't have dented a g****." (They steal that line from the boxing magazines, too) My thing is this... the guy that originally said that was not a fighter and wasn't in the practice of taking punches to even know better. Anyone who says they didn't see Ali land a punch in the Liston rematch is either crazy, blind or just a plain old liar. I have seen that fight sequence several times and the right that snaps Liston's head to the right side is very, very clear. And if you have ever been hit with those small gloves then you know that a punch doesn't have to look vicious to be vicious. Anybody can land a punch on anyone else and if the circumstances are right then the man will be hurt. You can say Ali wasn't a puncher but that doesn't mean anything in an isolated instance when a man happens to get through with his best shot. The same way it didn't when Michael Nunn absolutely crushed Kalambay with a single punch in their unification fight and the supposed light hitting Calvin Grove wrecked the always super tough Jeff Fenech with one punch. It happens. The punch doesn't have to look vicious either and you can look at George Foreman's simple, turn-over right hand that he dropped on Michael Moorer back in 1994, a short shot that had vicious results even though it looked not half as wicked as the punches he dropped Frazier with in Kingston.

  • #2
    It was a legitimate counter punch. No phantom.
    Last edited by SonnyboyReturns; 11-01-2010, 09:20 AM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by ICEMAN JOHN SCULLY View Post
      I Don't Believe In The Phantom.
      I have heard so many people claim that Sonny Liston threw the rematch with Ali in Lewiston. Most people, though, seem like they read it somewhere and now parrot whatever they heard some guy say on TV. They say it like it is the FACTS. Even people that have never even so much as seen a tape of the fight like to call it "the phantom punch." One guy told me today that Liston didn't get up, and he threw the fight, because "Liston was scared to death of crazy people and he didn't want to be in there with a crazy man like Ali."

      They say it was a "phantom punch" that felled Sonny.

      Now, anybody that follows boxing even a little bit knows that this guy got that "scared of crazy people" theory from listening to Angelo Dundee give that as his Liston- theory in some Ali special on TV that we all watched. It's just another case of someone hearing something somewhere and repeating it so many times that it becomes accepted as truth.

      Just like with the fight being fixed and every other claim made about that night in Lewiston, I ask this... How do YOU know? Did you know Liston? He confided in you his stance on crazy people? Were you there at the fight? Were you there when they called Sonny on the phone and asked him to take a dive? Did the bad guys call you as soon as they hung up with Sonny to tell you "OK, it's done."

      The best one is when they say "Ali landed a weak punch that couldn't have dented a g****." (They steal that line from the boxing magazines, too) My thing is this... the guy that originally said that was not a fighter and wasn't in the practice of taking punches to even know better. Anyone who says they didn't see Ali land a punch in the Liston rematch is either crazy, blind or just a plain old liar. I have seen that fight sequence several times and the right that snaps Liston's head to the right side is very, very clear. And if you have ever been hit with those small gloves then you know that a punch doesn't have to look vicious to be vicious. Anybody can land a punch on anyone else and if the circumstances are right then the man will be hurt. You can say Ali wasn't a puncher but that doesn't mean anything in an isolated instance when a man happens to get through with his best shot. The same way it didn't when Michael Nunn absolutely crushed Kalambay with a single punch in their unification fight and the supposed light hitting Calvin Grove wrecked the always super tough Jeff Fenech with one punch. It happens. The punch doesn't have to look vicious either and you can look at George Foreman's simple, turn-over right hand that he dropped on Michael Moorer back in 1994, a short shot that had vicious results even though it looked not half as wicked as the punches he dropped Frazier with in Kingston.
      I have to agree with you John. The punch clearly connects and as you said if you've been hit clean before it doesnt have to be a wrecking ball of a shot to hurt you. All it needs is superb timing, accuracy and speed for it to do big damage. Also add into the fact that ali wasnt exaclty small. If you can imagine a 15 and half stone man hitting you flush it will put you to sleep. I just think Liston got caught with ali's best punch he has ever thrown in a fight. If caught him clean, caught him cold and put him to sleep.
      Also. Im not to sure. But what was a prime listons chin like? Was he considered to have a decent chin or one that when hit could be cracked? Thanks.

      And good post John.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by ICEMAN JOHN SCULLY View Post
        I Don't Believe In The Phantom.
        I have heard so many people claim that Sonny Liston threw the rematch with Ali in Lewiston. Most people, though, seem like they read it somewhere and now parrot whatever they heard some guy say on TV. They say it like it is the FACTS. Even people that have never even so much as seen a tape of the fight like to call it "the phantom punch." One guy told me today that Liston didn't get up, and he threw the fight, because "Liston was scared to death of crazy people and he didn't want to be in there with a crazy man like Ali."

        They say it was a "phantom punch" that felled Sonny.

        Now, anybody that follows boxing even a little bit knows that this guy got that "scared of crazy people" theory from listening to Angelo Dundee give that as his Liston- theory in some Ali special on TV that we all watched. It's just another case of someone hearing something somewhere and repeating it so many times that it becomes accepted as truth.

        Just like with the fight being fixed and every other claim made about that night in Lewiston, I ask this... How do YOU know? Did you know Liston? He confided in you his stance on crazy people? Were you there at the fight? Were you there when they called Sonny on the phone and asked him to take a dive? Did the bad guys call you as soon as they hung up with Sonny to tell you "OK, it's done."

        The best one is when they say "Ali landed a weak punch that couldn't have dented a g****." (They steal that line from the boxing magazines, too) My thing is this... the guy that originally said that was not a fighter and wasn't in the practice of taking punches to even know better. Anyone who says they didn't see Ali land a punch in the Liston rematch is either crazy, blind or just a plain old liar. I have seen that fight sequence several times and the right that snaps Liston's head to the right side is very, very clear. And if you have ever been hit with those small gloves then you know that a punch doesn't have to look vicious to be vicious. Anybody can land a punch on anyone else and if the circumstances are right then the man will be hurt. You can say Ali wasn't a puncher but that doesn't mean anything in an isolated instance when a man happens to get through with his best shot. The same way it didn't when Michael Nunn absolutely crushed Kalambay with a single punch in their unification fight and the supposed light hitting Calvin Grove wrecked the always super tough Jeff Fenech with one punch. It happens. The punch doesn't have to look vicious either and you can look at George Foreman's simple, turn-over right hand that he dropped on Michael Moorer back in 1994, a short shot that had vicious results even though it looked not half as wicked as the punches he dropped Frazier with in Kingston.
        Are u the real John Scully???

        Anyways im with u its clear to see it snaps his head back and was a perfectly placed and timed shot wich amounts to a KO. Also Liston got up and was gonna fight on, Walcott lost control big time tho!

        Its annoying when people regurgatate crap like that and word for word most of the time too!

        Comment


        • #5
          It seems obvious to me that Liston was waiting for Ali to go to a neutral corner. At one point Ali starts to, and Sonny starts to get up, then Ali comes back and Sonny lays back down. When Ali finally goes to one, Liston gets up and resumes fighting till the timekeeper informs Walcott that the fight is over.

          The punch that put him down didn't seem to have him badly hurt, but I do think he didn't see it and it caught him off balance.

          Comment


          • #6
            Thanks...I think Liston was known for a good chin but..so wasnt Fenech...if a guy gets acaught "right" he can be hurt, I dont care who it is...I mean in your wildest dreams u couldnt imagine Calvin Grove KO'ing Fenech with one punch...but it happened...I find it hard to believe that people watch Ali's land that punch and they dont see the violent snapping of Sonny's neck on impact...if they dont see that then they must NOT be looking...

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by ICEMAN JOHN SCULLY View Post
              Thanks...I think Liston was known for a good chin but..so wasnt Fenech...if a guy gets acaught "right" he can be hurt, I dont care who it is...I mean in your wildest dreams u couldnt imagine Calvin Grove KO'ing Fenech with one punch...but it happened...I find it hard to believe that people watch Ali's land that punch and they dont see the violent snapping of Sonny's neck on impact...if they dont see that then they must NOT be looking...
              In addition you can see Listons ribcage vibrate and his feet lifting up as soon as the punch lands. It's impossible to fake something like that.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by The Surgeon View Post
                Are u the real John Scully???
                Yes, I am...and, yeah, people often regurgitate stuff they hear somewhere else and pass it off as fact...it snowballs into a FACT (even if it isnt)

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                • #9
                  If Michael DIDN'T go down from Foreman's final right hand nobody would have said anything...it didnt appear to be a BRUTAL shot...but it obviously was...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Jim Jeffries View Post
                    It seems obvious to me that Liston was waiting for Ali to go to a neutral corner. At one point Ali starts to, and Sonny starts to get up, then Ali comes back and Sonny lays back down. When Ali finally goes to one, Liston gets up and resumes fighting till the timekeeper informs Walcott that the fight is over.

                    The punch that put him down didn't seem to have him badly hurt, but I do think he didn't see it and it caught him off balance.
                    Yes thats what happend the fight should off been allowed to continue as the count shouldnt have started until Ali was in the corner, Walcott should have let the fight carry on it was just a complet mix up but people love there conspiracy theories.

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