Comments Thread For: Vitali Klitschko: Haye, Not Enough Speed or Power To Win

[WladIsTheChamp]

Different fighters age differently. Vitali is not far from his prime. Briggs' last meaningful win was five years ago, and even that wasn't very meaningful because Mercer was shot by then. And it's three entire years since he's been in a fight that lasted more than a round, which, given his history of stamina problems means he's likely to suffer from severe ring rust and is highly unlikely to be a threat for more than a round or two. And in that fight three years ago, he was schooled by Ibragimov.

Lots of fighters are shot by 30, while others are still close to their best approaching 40. It's not about age at all, it's about how close to your prime you are. And "prime" doesn't necessarily mean physical prime. Vitali's skills, like Hopkins' skills and Archie Moore's skills and Lewis's skills, have improved with age and extended his boxing prime by more than compensating for his loss of speed.

Yes, true, but Gaye's last 4 opponents, none of who were younger than 36, were/are all past their prime. Ruiz, Monte, and Barrett and especially Fraudley, were all done when Diva Gaye cherry picked them.

[WladIsTheChamp]

Most of them have been fighting taxi drivers, tomato cans

Huh? So Sultan Ibragimov and Ruslan Chagaev fought worse competition than Ali's or Holmes' opponents? Man just look at boxrec and look up some of the stories behind who Clay fought. One guy was just out of the hospital after being shot with a .45 in the stomach, he had paralysis in his left leg and several feet of his intestine removed, and that was one of Clay's signature wins. The other notable mark on Clay's hallowed record was loosing to a 7-1 LHW.

[FloydTBE]

Huh? So Sultan Ibragimov and Ruslan Chagaev fought worse competition than Ali's or Holmes' opponents? Man just look at boxrec and look up some of the stories behind who Clay fought. One guy was just out of the hospital after being shot with a .45 in the stomach, he had paralysis in his left leg and several feet of his intestine removed, and that was one of Clay's signature wins. The other notable mark on Clay's hallowed record was loosing to a 7-1 LHW.

SO now your saying the KLits are greater than Ali?
give it a break

[Carlisle]

Obviously when I said hall of famers I was referring to future hall of famers. You mentioning Byrd and Gomez as accomplishments shows how weak their resumes are. Let me educate you on what a great fighter is Muhammad Ali. Let me explain to you why Ali is great so you'll understand how silly you sound listing Byrd and Gomez as worthy accomplishments. Ali beat Foreman, Frazier, Liston, Lyle, Shavers and Norton. All legends. In case you didn't know you don't have to be retired to be considered a future hall of famer. For example everyone knows Hopkins is a future hall of famer. Back to my list. Do you see how silly you sound mentioning Gomez and Byrd as accomplishments when you consider the list of legends that Ali defeated to be considered great? Here is another example of a great fighter and future hall of famer who beat legends: Evander Holyfield and Lennox Lewis. The Klitschkos are no more accomplished than Mike Tyson who like the Klits held the tiltle and beat good competition but never beat great, legendary competion. That's why you have to mention Byrd and Gomez. Sorry.. Beating Byrd and Gomez don't make you top 10 all time.

You fool, their opposition hasn't been retired long enough to be even considered for the hall of fame, in case you didn't know, you have to be retired for a certain amount of time before being considered. Byrd will be in the IBHOF for sure, as for Vitaly's opponents, Gomez will get in as a CW. IBHOF is very subjective, when you look at the objective rankings of what Vitaly and Wlad has accomplished, such as length of reign, dominance of reign, number of defenses, KO%, rounds lost, W/L ratios of their opponents, in Vitaly's case the record breaking amount of time away from the ring before coming back to get his belt, etc., they both are already top 10 ATGs.

[Carlisle]

Look who Ali fought? You say look at Box Rec? Box Rec the same site YOU just quoted have Ali listed as #1 Heavyweight in the World of All Time. Ali fought and beat legends Foreman, Frazier, Norton, Patterson, Shavers, Liston
all legends. Six legends. More legends than the Klitschko brothers have fought COMBINED. Count em.

Huh? So Sultan Ibragimov and Ruslan Chagaev fought worse competition than Ali's or Holmes' opponents? Man just look at boxrec and look up some of the stories behind who Clay fought. One guy was just out of the hospital after being shot with a .45 in the stomach, he had paralysis in his left leg and several feet of his intestine removed, and that was one of Clay's signature wins. The other notable mark on Clay's hallowed record was loosing to a 7-1 LHW.

[nomadman]

Obviously when I said hall of famers I was referring to future hall of famers...

And how is anyone supposed to predict who's going to go into the HOF ten, fifteen years from now?

[WladIsTheChamp]

Obviously when I said hall of famers I was referring to future hall of famers. You mentioning Byrd and Gomez as accomplishments shows how weak their resumes are. Let me educate you on what a great fighter is Muhammad Ali. Let me explain to you why Ali is great so you'll understand how silly you sound listing Byrd and Gomez as worthy accomplishments. Ali beat Foreman, Frazier, Liston, Lyle, Shavers and Norton. All legends. In case you didn't know you don't have to be retired to be considered a future hall of famer. For example everyone knows Hopkins is a future hall of famer. Back to my list. Do you see how silly you sound mentioning Gomez and Byrd as accomplishments when you consider the list of legends that Ali defeated to be considered great? Here is another example of a great fighter and future hall of famer who beat legends: Evander Holyfield and Lennox Lewis. The Klitschkos are no more accomplished than Mike Tyson who like the Klits held the tiltle and beat good competition but never beat great, legendary competion. That's why you have to mention Byrd and Gomez. Sorry.. Beating Byrd and Gomez don't make you top 10 all time.

You are so dumb, you just owned yourself all in one paragraph, you state that Holyfield and Lennox Lewis are both hall of famer and legends and then you say that Byrd is not a HOF fighter? He beat Holyfield you idiot, in case you forgot. Not only that, but Lewis dropped his belt in the trash and got stripped because he refused to fight Byrd, cause in his prime Byrd was too slick for him. So Byrd, 2-time champ, has wins over a great HOF like Holyfield and Vitaly (injury win but a win on the record books) and he doesn't get in the IBHOF according to you? You are an idiot.

Both Klitschkos > Cassius Clay

[Dave Rado]

Yes, true, but Gaye's last 4 opponents, none of who were younger than 36, were/are all past their prime. Ruiz, Monte, and Barrett and especially Fraudley, were all done when Diva Gaye cherry picked them.

I wasn't talking about Haye. In any case, you can't count Ruiz as a cherry pick because Ruiz was his mandatory and he only got the Valuev fight by contractually agreeing to fight Ruiz in his first defence. I agree that he was way past his prime though.

[WladIsTheChamp]

And how is anyone supposed to predict who's going to go into the HOF ten, fifteen years from now?

Excellent point, but remember, you are talking to the same people that have a time machine invented where they can see Holmes and Ali knocking out Vitaly and Wlad in one round.

[WladIsTheChamp]

I wasn't talking about Haye.

I though you responded to a post of mine that talked about how he picked older opponents and you responded that time doesn't affect all fighters equally, or something like that. I agreed with that part in general but disagreed with Diva Gaye's opponents in particular.