Naseem vs. Barrera II - what would have happened?

[SnoopySmurf]

If Barrera can beat Erik Morales 2 out of three times, and each time Erik fought his best, I'm gonna say that Barrera would beat Hamed 2 out of 2 times.

Barrera just knows how to box, plainly put. He can brawl and he has a decent defense. I think some people want to believe that Hamed at his best could beat Barrera at his best. Why? Coz they remember all those fighters Hamed took out by KO. How good were they, though? Were they Erik Morales? Not. Even. Close. If Barrera had beaten the same fighters that Hamed beat but with a more methodical beat down, would he be a legend? I think people remember Hamed's entrances more than his fights.

I dunno. Barrera has always been a warrior. Even when he lost to Pacman, he was still trying to win. There is no backing down, no surrender in Barrera. The best of Barrera would beat the best of Hamed.

[J !]

Juy Juy, you keep saying that, yet he wasnt born in canada nor does he have canadian blood he grew up there from 12 to 21......

you sum it up when you say that there are ten better heavies post war.

go on then.

lets hear em.

you, im afraid are guilty of the very crimes that you accuse others of in regards to Eubank......you are hating on lewis.

you are a hypocrite mate Im afraid.

here is an article i helped co write with my colleagues at the BBN all of who had input and this was the general consensus.
i think you will find puts your pathetic ideas into perspective and to bed mate.

have a nice weekend,

[J !]

Over the coming months, BritishBoxing.net's contributors will be ****ing their heads together to try and come up with a list of top ten boxers for each major weight division post-1945.

We hope this will prove an interesting feature and spark off much debate. Feel free to send your views through our new 'Comments' facility. Well, brace yourselves for a journey through the Top Ten heavyweights...

(N.B. The criteria is that the fighter had to have spent a significant part of his career after World War II, which is why there was no place for the likes of Tommy Farr in our list.)

1. Lennox Lewis, Hadley Wood (b.1965) 41(32)-2-1

Lennox turned professional in 1989 amid the usual publicity that follows an Olympic gold medallist, but little did we know that he would go on to be the first British boxer to unify the world heavyweight titles.

Lennox comfortably blew away most of his early foes but it was his devastating victory against Donovan ‘Razor' Ruddock that really made the world take notice. Lewis attained the WBC belt in peculiar fashion as Rid**** Bowe refused to defend against Lennox, the mandatory challenger, dumping the belt for Lennox to claim by default.

Memorable defences followed, particularly in the battle of Britain against Frank Bruno, however Lennox got cold-****ed against Oliver McCall and was frozen out of the heavyweight world scene for over two years when he returned to batter his previous conqueror who seemed to suffer a breakdown in the ring.

Further controversy reigned as his unification bout against Evander Holyfield reached farcical proportions as a draw was awarded in a bout Lennox clearly won. A rematch was ordered and Lennox prevailed. Lennox then cleared out the division against all the top contenders until history repeated itself when he was ko'd by Hasim Rahman. Again he avenged this defeat in awesome fashion, smashing Rahman in four rounds.

His career defining fight then followed against Mike Tyson, quite simply put, he saved his best performance for his most important fight, outclassing and out-muscling the former baddest man in the planet in almost cruel fashion.
A further defence followed against present numero uno, Vitali Klischtko and again more controversy as Vitali was stopped on cuts in a fight that was even at best.

Lennox followed Gene Tunney and Rocky Marciano in retiring whilst champion last year. Happy retirement Lennox, Britain's best ever heavyweight.

2. Henry Cooper, Bellingham (b.1934) 40(27)-14-1

For a few brief moments on June 18, 1963, Henry Cooper looked to have changed the course of boxing history. In front of 35,000 spectators at Wembley Stadium, Cooper's legendary left hook sent loudmouth American youngster Cassius Clay crashing to the floor at the end of the fourth round. A combination of the bell and Angelo Dundee's handiwork with a pair of scissors (he cut open one of Clay's gloves, meaning a replacement had to be brought from the dressing room, giving him valuable extra recovery time) saved Clay and the fight was stopped in the fifth because of a dreadful cut above Cooper's left eye.

Clay went on to beat Sonny Liston to take the world title in his next fight; Cooper had to settle for the position of national hero. Cooper will forever be remembered for that fight, but there was far more to his career. He won ten of his 12 British title fights, won the European title three times and challenged for the world title. His opponent was again Clay - or Muhammad Ali as he was known by 1966 - and the result was almost identical, as a sickening cut above Cooper's left eye forced the referee to end it in the sixth.

In these days of protected fighters with unbeaten records it is difficult to appreciate the qualities of a boxer with 14 defeats to his name. Cooper though made an impression on the country that few fighters have ever managed to match, with his bravery and eagerness to take on the best endearing him to everyone who saw him in action.

3. Frank Bruno, Wandsworth, (b.1961) 40(38)-5

In a career characterised more by his defeats than his victories, Frank Bruno became arguably the most popular post-war boxer the UK has ever produced. His dignity and courage in those losses won him an acclaim and crossover appeal that his fistic talents perhaps did not warrant. He was able to bounce back from his first defeat to James ‘Bonecrusher' Smith (KO 10 – May 1984) and well-publicised eye trouble and finally shed his ‘bridesmaid' image by outpointing Oliver McCall to take the WBC title in September 1995 – a full decade after taking the EBU belt from Anders Eklund.

Prior to that night, Frank had failed in title shots with Tim Witherspoon (RSC 11) and Tyson (RSC 5). His other defeats came to Lennox Lewis (RSC 7) and in the first defence of the WBC belt (Tyson RSC 3). Bruno was a big puncher at European level but his stamina and punch seemed to desert him against true world-class opposition. It is part of the Bruno legend that in at least three of his defeats, all he had to do was to stay on his feet and keep doing what he had been doing up to that point. As an aside, Bruno is consistently credited with having had the most impressive physique of any heavyweight champion.

4. Joe Bugner, Bedford (b.1950) 69(41)-13-1

Joe Bugner's upright technique, reliant on an educated jab and good movement was certainly not the most instantly engaging of styles but it was undoubted in its effectiveness and it was on the biggest stage where Bugner proved his worth, losing only by decision to both Smokin' Joe Fraser and the inimitable Muhammed Ali (twice). Joe's long career saw him garner good victories over Jimmy Ellis, Greg Page and Bonecrusher Smith, all one-time title claimants.

Bugner also bettered Richard Dunn, James Tillis, Andres Eklund, Mac Foster, Jurgen Blin, Johnny Prescott, Brian London and Henry Cooper. It was his 15-round decision win over Cooper in 1971 for which Bugner will perhaps best be remembered, due to the controversial scoring of the contest. Cooper was so appalled by the decision in his younger foe's favour that he quit the ring, never to return, much in the same way as Marvin Hagler did following his 1987 decision loss to Ray Leonard.

Bugner never fought with the apparent desire and fervour of others and that hurt his standing in the eyes of fans. The public like fighters to wear their hearts on their sleeves but this was never Bugner's style. Despite this his achievements are irrefutable.


5. Bruce Wood****, Doncaster (b.1921) 35(1)-4

Bruce Wood****'s career spanned from 1942-1950. Two of those defeats came in his last two bouts against Lee Savold and Jack Gardner. To put it into perspective, the match against Savold was recognised by the BBBC as for the world title and Savold's next two matches were defeats against Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano. Bruce's other two losses were against world-rated Tami Maurello and Joe Baski.

Bruce was not a big heavyweight by today's standards but gave away weight and experience to a number of very good opponents. He beat class acts such as the legendary Freddie Mills and Gus Lesnevich. Gardner was the only British boxer to beat Wood**** as a pro. Bruce was managed and trained by Tom Hurst throughout his career – going by his record it was obviously a fruitful partnership.

[J !]

6. Don ****ell, Battersea (1928-1983) 65(37)-14-1

Don ****ell was a blacksmith who was as hard as the anvil he used to whack. A natural light-heavyweight, ****ell won the British and European crowns in this division before losing the British belt to the great Randy Turpin. Weight making problems forced him to step up though unlike some fighters who move up because of indiscipline, ****ell had a medical problem which meant he unavoidably piled on the pounds. He beat an ageing Tommy Farr and outpointed Johnny Williams for the domestic crown before moving into world class with a defeat of American Roland LaStarza.

The fight for which he is remembered most came on 16th May 1955 when he travelled to San Francisco to take on Rocky Marciano for the world title. ****ell was dropped in the eighth and twice in the ninth (Marciano hitting Don whilst on the canvas) but rose from each knockdown. The referee stepped in to save ****ell from any more punishment. Marciano paid tribute to him afterwards, saying: "He's got a lot of guts. I don't think I ever hit anyone else any more often or harder."

Some indication of the regard in which he was held is that he was runner-up in the 1954 Sports Journalists Awards. It took a good man to beat him. It was the year Sir Roger Bannister broke the four-minute mile.

7. Herbie Hide, Norwich (b.1971) 35(34)-4

People tend to love or hate the ‘Dancing Destroyer'. One thing that can't be denied about Herbie, whatever you think of his personal or even boxing shortcomings, is that he has both talent and courage in abundance. Always a highly-strung and volatile individual, Hide knocked out all-comers and picked up a couple of insignificant trinkets before beating Michael Murray for the British title in 1993.

A fight for the WBO title against Michael Bentt (who had just destroyed holder Tommy Morrison in a round) was arranged and Hide's violent temperament was exposed when the pre-fight press conferences turned into a brawl. He knocked out Bentt in round seven – a number that was to take on a new significance in his first defence when he bravely travelled Stateside to take on modern great Rid**** Bowe. Hide was down seven times in two brutal rounds.

He dished out some punishment of his own, knocking down Tony Tucker three times in front of his own fans to regain his title two years later but lost it to current WBC champ Vitali Klitschko in similarly brutal fashion in 1999. Hide has only fought six times since.

8. Brian London, Blackpool (b.1934) 37(26)-20-1

The Blackpool Rock had the misfortune of boxing in the same era as his nemesis, Henry Cooper, and they first met as young prospects in 1956. Brian's unbeaten run of 12 fights ended as he was caught cold by “Enry's Ammer” and knocked out inside a round.

Showing the character and mental toughness he would become well know for, Brian regrouped and came back with some good wins, eventually claiming the British and Commonwealth heavyweight title two years later with an eighth round stoppage of reigning champ Joe Erskine. This set up a big rematch with Cooper, but Henry again proved slightly too good, winning the title over 15 rounds, a result he repeated when the pair met for the third and final time in 1964.

Brian mixed with the best in the world, and managed to fight for the world title twice, being stopped in 11 rounds by Floyd Patterson, and in three by Ali. He battled the best of his time, fighters like Jerry Quarry, Zora Folley, Ingemar Johansson, Nino Valdes, Willie Pastrano and many more. Names that would probably make today's generation of heavyweights quake in their boots. The Blackpool Rock was well named, and a truly tough man.

9. Joe Erskine, Cardiff (1934-1990) 45(13)-8-1

Joe Erskine was not a particularly big punching heavyweight which meant he had to compensate by being a damned good boxer. He went unbeaten from his debut for 30 straight contests including wins against Henry Cooper (in a British title eliminator) and **** Richardson. Erskine picked up the vacant British title in his thirtieth victory against the man one below him in our list of greats, Johnny Williams.

The run came to a brutal end when world class Cuban Nino Valdes travelled to London and knocked Joe out in the first round. He successfully defended his British belt against Cooper, picking up the Commonwealth belt in the process, and defended his new belt against Joe Bygraves before travelling to Sweden to face their national hero Ingemar Johansson in a tilt at the European crown. Joe was stopped in the thirteenth round.

To make matters worse, he lost his titles to Brian London in his next fight. Joe never quite reached the same heights again. You can't say he wasn't a brave or tenacious man – he tried THREE times to wrest his belts back from then owner Henry Cooper and was stopped each time. Joe was a very good boxer who should be mentioned more often than he is.

10. Johnny Williams, Rugby (b.1926) 60(38)-11-4

Born on Christmas Day, 1926 at Barmouth in Wales, Williams moved to Rugby when he was three years old. He began his boxing career fighting in the boxing booths alongside his idol Sam Minto.

Critics often accused Williams of being negative and timid, but he showed he was no quitter when he fought Jack Gardner in July 1950; their fight was one of the hardest in British heavyweight history, with both men being detained in hospital overnight. Johnny lost on points, but in March 1952, he defeated Gardner for the British title. He was to lift the Empire (Commonwealth) title from Johnny Arthur in October 1952 and went unbeaten through 1951 and 1952.

There was a fair share of defeats for Williams too, he went in with bigger men like Bill Weinberg, Pat Comiskey and Heinz Neuhaus and although ahead in each of these fights, due to differing reasons he lost all of them. When most would have quit he came back to record some of his biggest wins. He stopped the hard Austrian Joe Weiden and outscored world-rated Omelio Agramonte and in what most people say was his best performance he beat American Aaron Wilson.

He lost his title to Don ****ell in 1953, and made an unsuccessful attempt to regain the British title losing to fellow top-tenner Joe Erskine on points in 1956

Williams was well-mannered and likeable ex-champion and vastly underrated as a fighter. He fought in an era of talented boxers and deserves to be included in the BBN top 10.

[JUYJUY]

I said that Lewis doesn't deserve to be near the top 10 Post-War Heavyweight's, I said nothing about the top 10 Post-War British Heavyweight's.

[JUYJUY]

you sum it up when you say that there are ten better heavies post war.

go on then.

lets hear em.

Jersey Joe Walcott, Rocky Marciano, Floyd Patterson, Sonny Liston, Muhammad Ali, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Ken Norton, Larry Holmes, Mike Tyson.

[J !]

JESUS. IM NOT EVEN GONNA DIGNIFY THAT WITH A RESPONSE, WALCOOT, PATTERSON AND NORTON ARENT EVEN IN THE SAME BALL PARK

you talking about somone who unified the division.

anyway yuo rate Eubank as the best british fighter post war nuff said.


whatever im through talking with you.

and by the way yuo can keep calling my a nutter, psycho whatever hidden in various threads cos you are right but then i dont give **** about your opinion anymore.

[JUYJUY]

JESUS. IM NOT EVEN GONNA DIGNIFY THAT WITH A RESPONSE, WALCOOT, PATTERSON AND NORTON ARENT EVEN IN THE SAME BALL PARK

you talking about somone who unified the division.

anyway yuo rate Eubank as the best british fighter post war nuff said.

Eubank could of been, but unfortunately he was avoided by Toney and Jones. I would probably rate Benn as the best Post-War British fighter based on blasting big-name American's Barkley and McClellan, although Buchanan might have something to say about that.

As for Walcott, Patterson, Norton.. yes they are all better fighters than Lennox Lewis. Ezzard Charles, though a blown-up Light-Heavy, out-skills Lewis every time with his slickness, although an ancient Archie Moore would probably be powered out of there. Zora Foley was an under-rated fighter, Cleveland Williams was another, and an undefeated Tony Tucker would win every round against Lennox Lewis (not the coke-addict who was six years past his best that Lewis struggled with, Tucker's jab slowed down in his 30's so much).

[rocco1252]

David Reid has no heart?????

Did you watch his fight with Tito, it was an act of god that he made it to the bell...**** what the hell are you taking about....Reid entered every fight he was ever in with an eye half closed...the guy showed enough heart for me in the Tito fight alone...

David Reid, no heart...rocco, no brain.

When I stated Reid had no heart I didnt mean he never had it obviously he did and he continues to be one of my favorite fighters even though he doesnt fight anymore. But you can tell how big the fighters heart is by how he handles his first loss and Hamed and Reid retired and have not been seen or heard of by the fight world since!

[SliqueJab]

hey rocco I like that quote from Smokin Joe but he forgot that he was smoke twice by Foreman.
And JuJuy I dunno why u rate Lewis so low, he's in my top 15 all time heavyweight because only him, Tunney and Marciano retired while they were on their top. Lewis beat the fighters that beat him proving his worth. Though his opponent are full of mediocre and over the hill, he also has good wins agains the like of knockout of Ruddock, close win against Mercer, toyed with Tua and knocking out previously undefeated Grant and also knocking out out Bruno and Tucker. If he could have beaten Bowe, I think he's in my top 10. Anyways, I think JuJuy hate the fact that Lewis knockout Tyson past his prime and I hate it too but I gotta give credit to Lewis he fought everybody the divison has to offer. It's not his fault that his era his mediocre compare to others.