Comments Thread For: “Fighting Words” – Five New, True Champions Resetting Their Divisions

[Tiozzo]

Bottom line is Floyd Mayweather Jr is ducking Manny Pacquiao the lineal champ
Ring is the only legit.

Pacquiao is not lineal/ring champion at WW

he vacated his lineage/ring belt at 140 when he decided he would stay at WW

meanwhile, Mayweather beat the man (Mosley) who beat the man (Margarito)

I guess Mayweather vs Pacquiao would be fought for the Ring WW belt

[jrosales13]

Why in this article there isn't the name of the BANTAMWEIGHT FERNANDO MONTIEL?He unified WBO/WBC vs HASEGAWA in Japan and continues to win(Rafael Concepcion KO3);MONTIEL is the best mexican boxer right now and his leadership is not in discussion.

Because, Montiel is not the lineal bantamweight champion.

[Mr. David]

lutenco, as jrosales said, Montiel's not the lineal champ. There's a difference between being rated No. 1 in the division (as The Ring magazine has him) and being the true champ.

It's a packed division that needs some fleshing out. Unfortunately, Montiel won't be part of the coming bantamweight tournament. However, that frees up to face Anselmo Moreno, for example, and the winner of that fight would be THE RING champion.

I don't think we'll see Montiel-Moreno yet. Probably Montiel vs. Nonito Donaire first, and then there are others at and around bantamweight that Top Rank could put the winner in against.

[Dave Rado]

meanwhile, Mayweather beat the man (Mosley) who beat the man (Margarito)

Margarito wasn't ever the lineal champion. Coming into the Margarito-Cotto fight, the lineal title was vacant, following Mayweather's "retirement": Cotto was ranked #1, Williams #2, Mosley #3, and Marg was ranked #4. When the lineal title is vacant, it can only be filled if the #1 and #2 contenders square off, or in exceptional circumstances, when the #1 and #3 contenders fight each other. Marg was ranked #4, so the contest was not for the lineal title.

Leading up to the Margarito-Mosley fight, the lineal title was still vacant, Margarito was ranked #1 and Mosley was ranked #3. (Cotto was ranked #2). So it could only be considered to be for the lineal title if it was deemed to be an "exceptional circumstance".

The Ring asked it's ratings panel of 39 respected boxing experts, all but one of whom don't work for The Ring, whether the Margarito-Mosley fight should be considered an exceptional circumstance.

[Side note: Of course The Ring's title and the lineal title aren't necessarily synonymous, but as they base their championship on linearity, as they take the responsibility very seriously, as they consult a wide range of respected boxing experts before making their decisions, as their rankings are generally the most respected in the sport, and as there is no independent sanctioning body with the authority to declare a new lineal champion once a title is vacant, most people do accept that The Ring's champions should be regarded as the lineal champions in most cases. Okay we all know about the Roy Jones anomaly, but I said in most cases.]


Anyway, the panel voted against the Marg-Mosley fight being for the lineal and Ring crown, mostly because many of them felt that Margarito was ducking Williams, who had been ranked #2 by The Ring before he moved up in weight, who had only recently moved up solely because he couldn't get a meaningful fight at Welterweight, and who had offered Margarito a lot more money to fight him at Welterweight in January 2009 than Margarito was offered to fight Mosley.

The other reason they didn't feel it was an "exceptional circumstance" was that there was no reason why the Margarito-Mosley winner couldn't fight Cotto in their next fight, at which point a new lineal champion would be crowned in any case.

I agree with both reasons.


Now we come to the Mayweather-Mosley fight. In the case of that fight, and assuming you accept all of the above (which most boxing historians do) then whether or not you consider that Mayweather-Mosley was for the lineal title or not depends on whether you consider Mosley and Mayweather were the #1 and #2 contenders at Welterweight at the time. Here The Ring is at odds with most boxing historians, because The Ring ranked Pacquiao #1 at Welterweight following his dominant win over Cotto, whereas most boxing historians ranked Pacquiao #3, behind Mosley and Mayweather, mainly because of Pac's insistence on fighting Cotto at a catchweight. As a result, The Ring's Welterweight title is still vacant, although Mayweather has now moved above Pacquiao in their Welterweight rankings; but most boxing historians disagree with The Ring on this, as I do, and consider that Mayweather is the new lineal Welterweight champion.

I hope that makes sense!

[joehz]

What about Montiel?

I think Montiel belongs in the list his the only bantam with two world titles and lets not forget he beat a highly regarded shamp for his second bantam title on the road in Japan and the colombian is not close to Montiels calaber.

[Dave Rado]

I think Montiel belongs in the list his the only bantam with two world titles and lets not forget he beat a highly regarded shamp for his second bantam title on the road in Japan and the colombian is not close to Montiels calaber.

Try reading the rest of the thread, your question has been answered in detail. In short, he's not a lineal champion.

[LeadUppercut]

7 champions out of 17 weight classes...
something is wrong with boxing...

hopefully, we'll get to see the crowning of other lineal champions in 2011 : super middleweight, cruiserweight, featherweight and junior welterweight would be a damn good start and would create great exciting battles

Khan/Maidana vs Bradley/Alexander
Marquez/Lopez vs Gamboa/John
Bute vs Super 6 winner
Huck vs Cunningham

good post, I hope so too

[LeadUppercut]

Margarito wasn't ever the lineal champion. Coming into the Margarito-Cotto fight, the lineal title was vacant, following Mayweather's "retirement": Cotto was ranked #1, Williams #2, Mosley #3, and Marg was ranked #4. When the lineal title is vacant, it can only be filled if the #1 and #2 contenders square off, or in exceptional circumstances, when the #1 and #3 contenders fight each other. Marg was ranked #4, so the contest was not for the lineal title.

Leading up to the Margarito-Mosley fight, the lineal title was still vacant, Margarito was ranked #1 and Mosley was ranked #3. (Cotto was ranked #2). So it could only be considered to be for the lineal title if it was deemed to be an "exceptional circumstance".

The Ring asked it's ratings panel of 39 respected boxing experts, all but one of whom don't work for The Ring, whether the Margarito-Mosley fight should be considered an exceptional circumstance.

[Side note: Of course The Ring's title and the lineal title aren't necessarily synonymous, but as they base their championship on linearity, as they take the responsibility very seriously, as they consult a wide range of respected boxing experts before making their decisions, as their rankings are generally the most respected in the sport, and as there is no independent sanctioning body with the authority to declare a new lineal champion once a title is vacant, most people do accept that The Ring's champions should be regarded as the lineal champions in most cases. Okay we all know about the Roy Jones anomaly, but I said in most cases.]


Anyway, the panel voted against the Marg-Mosley fight being for the lineal and Ring crown, mostly because many of them felt that Margarito was ducking Williams, who had been ranked #2 by The Ring before he moved up in weight, who had only recently moved up solely because he couldn't get a meaningful fight at Welterweight, and who had offered Margarito a lot more money to fight him at Welterweight in January 2009 than Margarito was offered to fight Mosley.

The other reason they didn't feel it was an "exceptional circumstance" was that there was no reason why the Margarito-Mosley winner couldn't fight Cotto in their next fight, at which point a new lineal champion would be crowned in any case.

I agree with both reasons.


Now we come to the Mayweather-Mosley fight. In the case of that fight, and assuming you accept all of the above (which most boxing historians do) then whether or not you consider that Mayweather-Mosley was for the lineal title or not depends on whether you consider Mosley and Mayweather were the #1 and #2 contenders at Welterweight at the time. Here The Ring is at odds with most boxing historians, because The Ring ranked Pacquiao #1 at Welterweight following his dominant win over Cotto, whereas most boxing historians ranked Pacquiao #3, behind Mosley and Mayweather, mainly because of Pac's insistence on fighting Cotto at a catchweight. As a result, The Ring's Welterweight title is still vacant, although Mayweather has now moved above Pacquiao in their Welterweight rankings; but most boxing historians disagree with The Ring on this, as I do, and consider that Mayweather is the new lineal Welterweight champion.

I hope that makes sense!

Good post man.

In my opinion lineage has not been re-established at WW since Mayweather vacated, but he is clearly the #1. I think The Ring have it right this time with Mayweather #1 at WW, and with Manny P4P #1.

To me..... The Ring rating Pac #1 at WW, when he had never actually fought a genuine WW at 147, was the straw that broke the camel's back as far as their credibility is concerned.

It was a "feel-good" decision.