Has there been another fighter in history...

[JK1700]

a loss is a loss son

Anyone can lose a 4 round fight at the start of you career, That kind of thing doesnt make you ordinary. But when get KO'd by bums like Pacquiao then it sure as hell does make you ordinary.

[Ryn0]

Fritzie Zivic, Bernard Hopkins, Joey Maxim, Sandy Saddler, Marvin Hagler all had pretty ordinary early careers but achieved incredible things (especially Saddler)

Humberto Soto and Margarito had pretty ordinary beginnings. Alot of the fighters from 3rd world countries aren't offered anywhere near the opportunities that even the small name americans/brits have so they can make it in boxing. They end up losing alot of their early fights because they are 15-16 fighting grown men.

In all honesty I don't know how anyone can call Pacquiao early career ordinary when he at 21 years old won a world title with a poor trainer, poor gym, without proper nutrition.

[JK1700]

Pac didn't transform suddenly. He improved over time just like most fighters who are pros for a long time. People forget Pac was already a champion before he became a big star. He's lucky that he lost to Morales just a few fights after he rose to national prominence. he needed that loss to remind him he wasn't invincible. He learned from it and has gone on to accomplish great things. It didn't happen immediately.

I'm not saying he wasnt still a good fighter, He beat Sasakul for the WBC belt but he was getting outboxed before the KO and then got KO'd by Singsurat. I give him credit for beating Barrera but shortly after that he got outboxed badly by Marquez and then beaten up by Erik Morales. But then all of a sudden he moved up to 135, 140, 147 and just started walking through everyone. Of course the Morales fight would have made him train harder, But I dont buy the fact that you can go from being knocked around by Oscar Larios, Marquez and Morales and then just move up and destroy guys that are much bigger than you.

Pacquiao wasnt even a serious puncher at 130 but now at 147 it's like he has huge power. Iv'e never heard of this happen either, When guys move up in weight they always struggle to maintain their power. Wheras Pacquiao just started killing everyone.

[ROSS CALIFORNIA]

I think it has a lot to do with Pac gaining experience and finding a great trainer to take him to that next level.

[HandSpeed303]

Who started off ordinary and then all of a sudden become extroadanary like Manny Pacquiao? I don't seem to be able to remember anyone who started off an ordinary fighter and then all of a sudden became extroadanary like Pacquiao has done. There have been fighters who had losses early in their career and went on to become very good. The only fighter I know is Cristian Mijares for example lost 3 times early in his career to 3 guys with a combined record of 2 wins, 7 losses and 2 draws. But this was totally different because he was like 16 years old and 2 of the losses were in 4 round bouts. And while Mijares was ranked in the p4p lists at one time and looked impressive, He didnt look invincible like Pacquiao. You could see his vulnerability.

Wheras with Pacquiao he won his first 18 bouts, Became champion but he was still an relatively ordinary fighter. He was of course knocked out by Medgoen Singsurat when he was champion, Outboxed by Erik Morales even though his opponent was clearly declining. Yes Morales only had 2 losses to Barrera but he didnt look the same fighter as he was a few years before. The fights with Barrera took alot out of him. Pacquiao also looked terrible in the 1st Marquez fight aside from the 1st round, but then after that. Something dramatic happened, He moved up several weight divisions and now looks like the terminator!

Has there been anyone else who started off ordinary and then became extroadanary out of nowhere? Please post if you can remember anyone...

Nope...Can't think of any. Manny is the only fighter to ever in the history of the game to do so...


The thing that kills me about this site sometimes is, when cats that do know about the sport (like the TS, cause he has proved he does), all of a sudden have total brain lock...

Acting as if they have not seen the progression in Pac-Mans game.. It is there!! Most seem to forget only cause of the JMM fights. That is the only reason. Most of the folks that were following Pac career, or had seen him for a while knew he was a one handed buzzsaw...Then as Roach started to mold him, he started to use the right hand alot more, his movement became alot better, not to mention he wasn't just throwing punches for the **** of it! His game became more refined! Funny thing is, Pac improvement wasn't sudden...

Most know this, but still choose to hate.

[Tyson.]

Pacquaio started at 16 and was from the street. Any fighter thrown into the deep end at such a young age will lose as they lack experaince. That is why promoters are very careful to protect their fighters.

While a past prime Morales did beat Pac, apart from Barrera no other person at 130 would of beaten him. Although in the second fight Morales was weight drained and in the third fight he was shot. JMM is a top class boxer, a 3 weight champion. There is no shame in losing close decisons to the versions of Morlaes and JMM he lost to. Especially when many consider these to be definate HOFers and possibly ATGS.

[HandSpeed303]

Pac didn't transform suddenly. He improved over time just like most fighters who are pros for a long time. People forget Pac was already a champion before he became a big star. He's lucky that he lost to Morales just a few fights after he rose to national prominence. he needed that loss to remind him he wasn't invincible. He learned from it and has gone on to accomplish great things. It didn't happen immediately.

Great post!

[HandSpeed303]

I'm not saying he wasnt still a good fighter, He beat Sasakul for the WBC belt but he was getting outboxed before the KO and then got KO'd by Singsurat. I give him credit for beating Barrera but shortly after that he got outboxed badly by Marquez and then beaten up by Erik Morales. But then all of a sudden he moved up to 135, 140, 147 and just started walking through everyone. Of course the Morales fight would have made him train harder, But I dont buy the fact that you can go from being knocked around by Oscar Larios, Marquez and Morales and then just move up and destroy guys that are much bigger than you.

Pacquiao wasnt even a serious puncher at 130 but now at 147 it's like he has huge power. Iv'e never heard of this happen either, When guys move up in weight they always struggle to maintain their power. Wheras Pacquiao just started killing everyone.

He was nothing more than a one handed fighter in the first JMM fight, and if it was scored properly, he would have won.

The Morales fight was not a beat down...That was a good fight, that Pac lost. I hate when folks try and make it seem like it was more than it was.

[JK1700]

Fritzie Zivic, Bernard Hopkins, Joey Maxim, Sandy Saddler, Marvin Hagler all had pretty ordinary early careers but achieved incredible things (especially Saddler)

Humberto Soto and Margarito had pretty ordinary beginnings. Alot of the fighters from 3rd world countries aren't offered anywhere near the opportunities that even the small name americans/brits have so they can make it in boxing. They end up losing alot of their early fights because they are 15-16 fighting grown men.

In all honesty I don't know how anyone can call Pacquiao early career ordinary when he at 21 years old won a world title with a poor trainer, poor gym, without proper nutrition.

I already explained about B-Hop and Hagler, Bernard lost a 4 round MD and Hagler lost 2 close fights in his opponent's hometown. There's a huge difference between losing a close 4 round fight and being KO'd twice by bums.

I mentioned about another Mexican fighter Cristian Mijares on the 1st page, Like Soto he lost early fights when he was very young and inexperienced. Margarito as we all know cheated, He was never good until he started loading his gloves so let's not even talk about him.

Pacquiao was not poor when he lost to Morales and Marquez (in my opinion he lost) and then shortly after became extroadanary. There's no doubt Pacquiao is a good fighter but I don't buy the idea that you can go from being rocked and unable to KO Oscar Larios to walking through guys like Miguel Cotto. It's just not natural at all, No other fighter has done it.

[HandSpeed303]

I already explained about B-Hop and Hagler, Bernard lost a 4 round MD and Hagler lost 2 close fights in his opponent's hometown. There's a huge difference between losing a close 4 round fight and being KO'd twice by bums.
I mentioned about another Mexican fighter Cristian Mijares on the 1st page, Like Soto he lost early fights when he was very young and inexperienced. Margarito as we all know cheated, He was never good until he started loading his gloves so let's not even talk about him.

Pacquiao was not poor when he lost to Morales and Marquez (in my opinion he lost) and then shortly after became extroadanary. There's no doubt Pacquiao is a good fighter but I don't buy the idea that you can go from being rocked and unable to KO Oscar Larios to walking through guys like Miguel Cotto. It's just not natural at all, No other fighter has done it.

So the fact that Pac was young is not even an issue to you then?