Is Ali a bit overrated ?

[Kris Silver]

I don't have any gripes with these things, but I do give some credibility that a self marketed boxer with a big media persona garners more overall attention than his peers. Add to that America was and is boxings home in terms of the biggest fights and in some respects fighters, I think you had an unique gem in the great Ali.

He was extremely talented, fought everyone out there, is an inspiration and is undoubtedly one of the greatest ever. However for all of the same reasons noted, I do think they to lend themselves to a credible scenario that he is too, a little over rated, in terms of purely in the ring.

He picked up too many losses prime or not, he had some very close decisions some of which he could have rightly lost also.

I think one of the fights which endeared so many people to him, and inspired them to convey how amazingly talented he was, was the Foreman fight. He soaked up punishment on purpose and defeated the odds, which will always be a unique, inspiring, legendary performance and also, perhaps over rated. Had the gamble not worked out you wonder just how much less hype he'd have gotten.

Not taking anything away from him, he's one of the greatest ever maybe even the. But for these reasons I voted yes, a little bit over rated. Some people will just always refuse to credit that, Ali is a maverick whom will always begger extreme praise, he's held that highly regarded by all. Just how it is.

[Tiozzo]

Oh, so now Butterbean would NOT have been lineal champion had he beaten Holmes? Just because "a lot of time" has passed?

Your screwing with definitions gets more and more obvious.

Sorry, I'd rather trust Wikipedia than your what-suits-my-agenda-best-definitions.


Let's face it: You insulted me again. You are hereby officialy declared "A typical CLAYton".

Please also read the steps of CLAYton-delusion:
http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/sh...58#post5440358

You show nearly all signs.

I make a thread questionning whether Ali is overrated or not, and I'm a ''Clayton'' ??? Unlike you, I have no crush for any fighter, so I have no agenda. You agenda is simple : suck on the Klits ****s as much as you can.

And your reading comprehension is poor. Butterbean couldn't have become linear champion since Holmes lost that title to Spinks. But had he lost to Butterbean, let's say prior to fighting Spinks, then yes, Butterbean would have been linear champion. However, it is ******ed just to look at that as being a possibility, great fighters like Holmes don't lose to the Butterbeans of this world. It was the very last fight of his career.

And don't bother posting your links, I won't read anymore nonsense, the stuff you post here is enough nonsense already.

[Tiozzo]

Thanks, I was about to respond in the same fashion. Obviously the definition of "linear" has changed over the years and it first it did not exist when only one belt was around. Now "linear" is meant to be one of three things: 1)to have the same lineage from the time of only one belt 2) or from beating a unified champ at a particular time 3) or from unifying all of the major belts. You have to look at how the crazy dude who claims that Ali needed help from god to beat a one-legged intestine-missing kidney-less Cleveland Williams (while at the same time that is still one of Ali's best wins) meant it. The crazy dude meant "linear" as "unified" because he mentioned that Ali was a "three-time linear" champion. Since there was no such thing as "linear" when Ali first won the belt (because there was only one belt), I rightly took it to mean "unified". Hence my response was in reference to unified champs; that is much harder to be a "unified" champ today than it was back in Ali's time because you have to pick up at least 4 belts today (maybe even 5 if you count the IBO), which means dealing with the politics of boxing (trying to get cowards like Haye in the ring, dealing with corrupt killers like Don King, sanctioning fees/bribes to all of the different organizations) and also having to defend each one of your belts against mandatories in the mean time until get all of the belts. I think Torlou's lack of reading comprehension and logic reasoning, along with his lack of boxing knowledge, has been EXPOSED!!!

nonsense

unified champion is one thing
linear champion is another

do you question the fact that Tyson only became LINEAR CHAMPION when he beat Spinks, despite the fact that he was UNIFIED CHAMPION ? simple question, I would appreciate a simple answer

[Scott9945]

Cleveland Williams was not good, he was great. That man was a beast, he had unbelievable skills and power. Most boxing historians and experts agree to say Williams was the best HW to never win the championship.

A healthy prime Williams would have given Ali hell.

That is total fiction. Williams was a good heavyweight, but even close to a great one. I've actually seen him fight. And I dare you to try and document where "boxing experts" call Williams the best never to win the title. He probably rated behind guys like Eddie Machen and Zora Folley in his prime.

[Tiozzo]

You CLAYtons are so predictable with your insults.


Of course there is doubt. Prime Foreman was 6'3.5'' and 210+ lbs. Of course Vitali has more power than Foreman, who scored only 3 KOs in world championship fights.


Exactly. That's why Foreman's KOratio is so high. He has a very bum'ed up record.


You are a hater.


I call Frazier featherfisted because he has a lower heavyweight KOratio than Byrd who is generally considered a featherfist. I don't care about Frazier's KOratio against cruiser bums like Chuck Leslie (177lbs, 22-23).

Moreover I answered this already at
http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/sh...5&postcount=76

Thus let me repeat:

• Frazier was not only a featherfist
• He was also blind on his left eye
• He was put by Foreman where he OBJECTIVELY belongs
• Frazier is the proof HOW BAD Ali was, not how good Ali was

CLAYtons should come up with new arguments instead of clinching to some childhood delusions ("Wow, Frazier is strooong").


I have answered this so often already. The TERM "cruiserweight" didn't exist. But 177 is 177 now and then, whether you call it "heavyweight" or "supadupakillaweight". It's completely irrelevant how you call it.

You know exactly that the Klitschko's KOratio would rise to 99% would they line up such cruiser bums like Frazier's aforementioned Leslie or Ali's Jimmy Robinson (177lbs, 7-25). Never ever again compare Ali's cruiser fights like Patterson (188) to any of Wlad's opponents.

If you HONESTLY want to compare diferrent era's then compare Ali's cruiserweight performance to David Haye's.

Just look at this picture. I mean JUST LOOK AT IT:


This is *cough* heavyweight Ali in his THIRD PROFESSIONAL YEAR.

If you claim that this guy has any chance WHATSOEVER against WLAD (or any modern heavyweight whatsoever) then you need some severe reality adjustment. Keep the cruiser wins in the cruiser record and the heavyweight wins in the heavyweight record.

YOUR LOGIC IS SO FLAWED AND DISHONEST IT'S NOT EVEN FUNNY

if I'm a hater, post the great names that are on Vitali's resume, because
Foreman resume >>>>>>>>> Vitali resume
post the names please do

your heavyweight KO ratio thing is a joke, compared to themselves, the Klits only fought much smaller men, so shut up already with that ****

Byrd is a real featherfisted man
Frazier is a beast, his left hook could KO ANYONE

funny how you avoided to quote me when I said Wlad and Vitali usually outweighs their opponents by 25 lbs or more, yet you criticise Ali for outweighing Patterson or Quarry by 15-20 lbs
that is pretty irrationnal and ******, you criticise your own idols actually

and if Brewster, Sanders and Puritty were able TO STOP Wlad, I have no problem imagining Ali stopping him in his tracks either

[Tiozzo]

That is total fiction. Williams was a good heavyweight, but even close to a great one. I've actually seen him fight. And I dare you to try and document where "boxing experts" call Williams the best never to win the title. He probably rated behind guys like Eddie Machen and Zora Folley in his prime.

Williams and Quarry are usually the 2 names that come up when talking about the best HW to never win a world championship

do you own research, I'm not your slave

[Tiozzo]

"How hard is to beat a gimp with one leg and no stomach?" Cleveland williams was not a gimp with one leg and no stomach.

"How hard is it to look spectacular while doing it? Williams might have been someone dangerous before getting shot but after he got shot he had an atrophied leg, 10 feet of intestine taken out, failed kidney, and he was off for a year... Yeah, you can claim this as some great victory for Ali but to anyone sane, you look crazy doing it..." - Well he fought a perfect fight that night. Prabably ne of the greatest dominances of all time. Not everyone can look spectacular doing it. ALi showed a perfect combination of footwork timing and
accuracy in that fight. He even knocked williams down going backwards. That was something ray Robinson did. To be honest, words can't really describe how great Ali was that night. Just take a look at this video with a clear mind:




"This would be equivalent to W. Klitschko beating up on Morrisson today. Would you give Waldimir credit for that win? After all Morrisson had one of the deadliest left hooks in history, I mean he was a serious puncher, his KO% is much higher than that of Cleveland Williams and he actually managed to win a title at HW, which Williams can never claim to have done." - It definitely isn't equivalent to beating up tommy morrison today. That's a silly comparison.

[b]dividing the men who were under 200 lbs of the men who 200 lbs and more is uttelry ******ed because the CW division didn't exist in that era
if you fought above 175 lbs, you were a HW, period[/b]

you have edited your post and took my own words, you should have quoted me you know...

[Tiozzo]

Ali beat

Sonny Liston - Hall of Famer
Floyd Patterson - Hall of Famer
George Chuvalo
Joe Fraizer - Hall of Famer
Ken Norton - Hall of Famer
Goerge Foreman - Hall of Famer
Earnie Shavers
Ernier Terrell,
Oscar Bonevana
etc

How is Ali overrated?

if you actually had read the thread, you wouldn't ask why I think he is a bit overrated

[Scott9945]

Williams and Quarry are usually the 2 names that come up when talking about the best HW to never win a world championship

do you own research, I'm not your slave

I'm not wasting my time researching fictional bull****. So who called Williams the best to never win the title? Should be easy for you, since so many people said it. The truth is that Williams was just another heavyweight contender who was clobbered by Liston twice and even KO'd by lightheavyweight Bob Satterfield.

[Tiozzo]

I'm not wasting my time researching fictional bull****. So who called Williams the best to never win the title? Should be easy for you, since so many people said it. The truth is that Williams was just another heavyweight contender who was clobbered by Liston twice and even KO'd by lightheavyweight Bob Satterfield.

Herb Goldman ranked Williams as the #22 All-Time Heavyweight

A Ring Magazine poll once rated him as one of the finest boxers who never won a title.

Cleveland Williams: The Baddest Cat to Never Win the Heavyweight Title says Rich Thomas