Tyson, Williams and the myth of that knee

[Guest]

Okay, it's an old(ish) subject, but it's quiet week for boxing (until the weekend, natch) so what the Hell.

This is something that's always bugged me about the Tyson/Williams fight. The notion that Williams "got lucky" and would have been knocked out in the first if his knee hadn't have gone.

Taking away the fact that the knee was largely caused by Williams, who applied his body weight to Tyson on the inside (not exactly sporting, but then neither are Tyson's elbows, Holyfield's head, Lewis's hitting and holding.....), I believe that the knee would have had no bearing on the outcome of the first round.

The second? Well, maybe. By the third Tyson was looking for a way out after paying for a bum to turn up and that "bum" not playing ball.

But I was reminded of the whole situation not just by posts on here (read another post on this front page which tries to downgrade Danny's win by pointing out he was obliterated by Klitschko... and that makes Tyson look better?!!?) but by a recent edition of Boxing Monthly where Freddie Roach admitted he underestimated Williams (the camp were publicly talking about a one-round fight) and that while Tyson had treatment for the knee, Roach said he wouldn't regard that as the reason he lost as "he never mentioned it to me in the corner."

People always slate Williams for this fight, but fail to mention Tyson sitting down like a ***** finger and waiting to be counted out.


But let's look at this "Tyson would have got the KO if it wasn't for the knee" myth. Here's the list of events that took place in that round, from the moment Williams was rocked to the end of the round. The time is the time that was left on the clock.



1'37m - Tyson's first significant shot against Williams

1'33m - The uppercut that Williams would later describe as "a white light behind his eyes"... Williams holds on and applies his weight to Mike, as the referee has to split them up.

1'21m - Action resumes, with Williams covering and not taking any further headshots from Tyson. They clinch again.

1'08m - The referee splits them up.

1'02m - Action resumes, Tyson trying to get in another uppercut. He succeeds once, the rest go to the body. Another clinch.

0'51m - The referee splits them up

0'47m - Action resumes. Williams uses the clinch and again gets separated by the referee. It's clear at this stage that Williams's head has now cleared.

0'30m - Action resumes.

0'28m - The knee!!!


More trading, some referee intervention, end of round.

Now is there really any Tyson fan so deluded that they think that a Danny Williams who was half-conscious could avoid being KOed by Tyson for over a minute would then be knocked out with a cleared head and less than half a minute on the clock? Tyson's got the guy half-out in front of him, yet he still has the savvy to avoid getting KOed for over a whole minute when out on his feet? This same guy would then - with his consciousness fully restored - get knocked out in less than a minute?

Here's the video so you can see for yourselves:

Tyson vs. Williams Round One:
Williams in trouble-end of round (11mb)

[leff]

what is it with you and williams, you seem to be the only guy here giving him credit.

i dont think the had much to do with it.

[Guest]

what is it with you and williams, you seem to be the only guy here giving him credit.

i dont think the had much to do with it.

So you're slagging me but agreeing with my point at the same time?

Nah, it's been a while since I did a Williams thread (oh... two weeks? ) but it's just disheartening to see him disregarded when I've seen nearly all his career. I know he's not a worldbeater, but he's no bum either.

[Kimmy]

Tyson would have lost that fight regardless because before the opening bell Williams had made up his mind to take whatever came his way. I think maybe Tyson under-estimated Danny slightly but the knee was a non issue. Danny Williams Ko`d Tyson in 4 rounds and thats the facts. Whether or not the knee made a differenIpce is speculation. I prefer facts and fact is on that night, Williams was the better fighter!

[RobbieD]

An American being being by a Brit is just wrong. It could be the sweetest punch one punch knock out in the history of professional boxing and there'd be some excuse. Broken knees, torn muscles, water on the canvas, the sky was cloudy, the broad in the 5th row was wearing a purple thong, 9/11, etc, etc, etc.

(obviously this isn't always the case but you get the point)

[Kimmy]

An American being being by a Brit is just wrong. It could be the sweetest punch one punch knock out in the history of professional boxing and there'd be some excuse. Broken knees, torn muscles, water on the canvas, the sky was cloudy, the broad in the 5th row was wearing a purple thong, 9/11, etc, etc, etc.

(obviously this isn't always the case but you get the point)

I get the point. Much through Lennox Lewis` career he took allot of falk even when winning. I think Frank Bruno, Joe Bugner, Henry Coopper and Herbie Hide damaged the British boxer image through their ****ty performances at world level ( save maybe Cooper, he just bled allot ).

[realheavyhands]

Tyson would have lost that fight regardless because before the opening bell Williams had made up his mind to take whatever came his way. I think maybe Tyson under-estimated Danny slightly but the knee was a non issue. Danny Williams Ko`d Tyson in 4 rounds and thats the facts. Whether or not the knee made a differenIpce is speculation. I prefer facts and fact is on that night, Williams was the better fighter!

HaHa im laughing at u... tyson woulda ko williams in that second round if you think otherwise suttin wrong witchu or u jus hate tyson..2rounds woulda Been over...how lOng it take klitscko

[paul750]

williams already took a lot of shots during the course of that fight anyway, and they looked pretty legitimate to me, danny williams has a big heart and when tyson can't get fighters out of there early, it's more than likely that he'll be in trouble.

[30stonegorilla]

Taking away the fact that the knee was largely caused by Williams, who applied his body weight to Tyson on the inside (not exactly sporting, but then neither are Tyson's elbows, Holyfield's head, Lewis's hitting and holding.....), I believe that the knee would have had no bearing on the outcome of the first round.

Hi Anorak. Doubtful the knee had any bearing on the outcome of the fight. Tyson is more than just shot as a fighter---he doesn't really want to fight. Williams is a tomato can, what he did or didn't do in that fight is irrelevant. He is irrelevant as a contender. Any one of a hundred tomtato can heavies could have given Iron Mike hell that night.

People always slate Williams for this fight, but fail to mention Tyson sitting down like a ***** finger and waiting to be counted out.

I agree Tyson fans are guilty of this. Tyson showed heart when getting his clock cleaned by Buster Douglas. But there was still some residual character left from the Cus D'amato years, even though the creature Don King had moved in and started the process of exploiting and ruining a great fighter. Since the meltdown against Holyfield, Tyson has been a cur yellow dog in the ring, which was what he was when they brought his teenage ass up to the gym in Catskill, what he was when Teddy Atlas ran him off with a pistol and had him crying on a street corner.

All that being said, Anorak, your interest in this topic stems solely from the fact Williams is a Brit. List of passably talented UK heavies since Bob Fitzsimmons:

1-Tommy Farr
2-Don ****ell
3-Henry Cooper
4-Joe Bugner
5-Frank Bruno
6-Herbie Hide
7-Audley Harrison

Brian London and Richard Dunn were game, not much more. Lennox Lewis is a Jamaican. Sure he was born in England and fought for Canada, but John McEnroe was born in Germany, don't make him a German.

For some reason, given their athletic heritage and population, the UK is the most athletically challenged country in human history. The average UK athlete has intelligence and heart, stamina, what the cowboys in the USA call "try," but he lacks TALENT, lacks reflexes and athleticism. I know, you say take away our black fighters and that describes American fighters as well. Boxing has been a sport given to ethnics, way back to the great Irish and ***ish and Italian fighters of the Golden Era. Maybe that's where the hunger to partake in such a deadly sport comes from, hard to really say, but I do know the most gifted fighter on your island, Joe Calzhage, if I spelled his name properly, is an ethnic. Most traditional englishmen are face forward sluggers like Ricky hatton, easily exploited by world class competition and they bleed like stuck pigs. However, my favorite fly of all time was Benny Lynch, who was as tough and as gifted as a little guy can be. Oh yeah, he was a Scot. Never mind.

[30stonegorilla]

HaHa im laughing at u... tyson woulda ko williams in that second round if you think otherwise suttin wrong witchu or u jus hate tyson..2rounds woulda Been over...how lOng it take klitscko

Hi Realheavyhands. Your laughing at other folks won't make your case for Tyson. Fact is, Klitschko beat williams handily, Tyson didn't. Tyson could have gotten up and didn't. He is a coward and a quitter, nothing like the young lion that destroyed Marvis Frazier. It happens to people, and he is the poster boy for all simple minded exploited prizefighters who have reverted back to their predatory, bullying roots and alientated and betrayed all the folks who developed them into the awesome fighting machine they were. Yeah, he's a sorry train wreck still hanging on doing something he can no longer be competitive at because he needs to pay some bills because he squandered the hundreds of millions of dollars he earned when he could fight a lick. And if you knew him, and rolled with him, maybe you would like him for awhile, until he sucker punched you first time you said something he didn't like. And "if you think otherwise suttin wrong witchu."

Jimmy