Most effective defensive fighter in the game today

[Walt Liquor]

Thank you Reed! This is all I wanted, a discussion based on the points I was thinking through in my head, not people just telling me stuff that I was already ahead of. Excellent post. I have a few counter points, but I agree with muc of what you said.



Parrying and slipping?

Wlad leans back and holds out his jab to get away from an opponent swinging at him, by creating distance.

Floyd actually parrys and slips shots and then creates effective counters from it.

Wlad parry's quite a bit. You are discounting him here. It's easy for him because he's so far away from the punches, but not as much as Floyd.

You can take away the counter shot.. but the slipping and parrying of Floyd cannot be compared to Wlad... you can't just group all of those together. TRUE



Floyd blocks a lot more than Wlad. TRUE



Most of Wlads defensive is leaning straight back so that he is out of the reach of his opponent. Leaning and using footwork, don't forget.

Floyd uses many more attributes when defending his opponent. TRUE


He actually does slip under your shots. Wlad is too tall to slip under shots, not an option

Now Floyd leans back to counter just like Wlad does... but Floyd utilizes a lot more moves with his defense, and quite successfully. True


Wlads defense is highly based on his height, and ability to lean out of the reach of the opponent. TRUE



Floyd can use his reflexes like Roy to make you miss. Are not reflexes an inate advantage just like height?


Floyd can also stand in the pocket, block, parry, and counter shots standing 6 inches in front of you. We're leaving out countering and jabs remember

All 3 of these fighters are good defensive fighters.. my point is that, Floyd has more facets to his defensive game. He has more tools in the shed when it comes to defense. Thank you, how many fools in this thread are discounting Wlad's d and saying he's not even a defensive fighter.




His height does in fact give him the ability to lean back out of reach. It is what it is. This is his way of slipping cuz he's so damn tall

When has Wlad ever fought a fighter taller than him or with a longer reach? Point taken

Floyd has, and defended them effectively. TRUE

Bottom line, as I've said. Floyd is waaaay slicker, and like you proved in your post above, has way more tools in the shed. But is it really more effective. For example. Kelly Pavlik (back when he was good) was blasting fools out with 1-2's all day. That is an effective offense. Is it more effective than a guy who has less ko's and less wins but has a more varied offense?

[Walt Liquor]

Bro him not getting hit has nothing do with great defense it has to do with his size , reach and jab. Thats OFFENSE. A jab is OFFENSE. Hes not even one of the Top Heavies period for defense.

This is an incredibly ****** statement.

The educated in this post have already disagreed with you on that statement Burner and in that group I am including Reed, Eaner and myself.

[B.U.R.N.E.R]

Thank you Reed! This is all I wanted, a discussion based on the points I was thinking through in my head, not people just telling me stuff that I was already ahead of. Excellent post. I have a few counter points, but I agree with muc of what you said.



Parrying and slipping?

Wlad leans back and holds out his jab to get away from an opponent swinging at him, by creating distance.

Floyd actually parrys and slips shots and then creates effective counters from it.

Wlad parry's quite a bit. You are discounting him here. It's easy for him because he's so far away from the punches, but not as much as Floyd.

You can take away the counter shot.. but the slipping and parrying of Floyd cannot be compared to Wlad... you can't just group all of those together. TRUE



Floyd blocks a lot more than Wlad. TRUE



Most of Wlads defensive is leaning straight back so that he is out of the reach of his opponent. Leaning and using footwork, don't forget.

Floyd uses many more attributes when defending his opponent. TRUE


He actually does slip under your shots. Wlad is too tall to slip under shots, not an option

Now Floyd leans back to counter just like Wlad does... but Floyd utilizes a lot more moves with his defense, and quite successfully. True


Wlads defense is highly based on his height, and ability to lean out of the reach of the opponent. TRUE



Floyd can use his reflexes like Roy to make you miss. Are not reflexes an inate advantage just like height?


Floyd can also stand in the pocket, block, parry, and counter shots standing 6 inches in front of you. We're leaving out countering and jabs remember

All 3 of these fighters are good defensive fighters.. my point is that, Floyd has more facets to his defensive game. He has more tools in the shed when it comes to defense. Thank you, how many fools in this thread are discounting Wlad's d and saying he's not even a defensive fighter.




His height does in fact give him the ability to lean back out of reach. It is what it is. This is his way of slipping cuz he's so damn tall

When has Wlad ever fought a fighter taller than him or with a longer reach? Point taken

Floyd has, and defended them effectively. TRUE

Bottom line, as I've said. Floyd is waaaay slicker, and like you proved in your post above, has way more tools in the shed. But is it really more effective. For example. Kelly Pavlik (back when he was good) was blasting fools out with 1-2's all day. That is an effective offense. Is it more effective than a guy who has less ko's and less wins but has a more varied offense?

So people who say hes not on Floyds level as far as defense are fools?

You didnt make a poit that he has good defense. You making the point that hes the BEST defensive fighter in all of boxing. Cmon man. Everyone has been giving you points. Wlad has GOOD d. Not Great D. And not anywhere near Floyds level.

This thread is saying Wlad has the best Defense in boxing which is just not true no matter how we spin it. Wlad wouldt even agree with this.

[Eaner0919]

Ok, I can see where you're going Eaner. People are scared as hell of Wlad's straight right (offense).

and a jackhammer jab that prevents inside fighters from coming in.

Case in point. A lot of Chambers best work against Dimintrenko came when he was in his perfect range...a much closer radius than that of Dmintrenko

against Wlad he simply could not and would not venture inside of Wlad's punch radius because every time he did he got a face full of jab.

Are they not scared of Floyd's counters (offense). does that not make people hesitate when attacking Floyd? Again, I could be wrong and I'm not trying to discredit Floyd's d. Just talking about something I was thinking about.

not necessarily. Short of Judah's mental collapse and DLH's fatigue most of Floyd's opponents kept coming.

Does floyd not also have physical advantages (speed/reflexes)? Let me put it like this. Let's say Diego fought defensively and was able to lean away and block incoming fire at 130 (where he was waaay taller than everyone). Would we hold it against him that he was naturally tall for his weight class when evaluating his defensive abilities.

in some way yes Floyd has a physical advantage but the key word to me is that he doesn't necessarily impose it in the same manner as Wlad. He has to use his skill alongside his advantages to create defensive traps whereas Wlad can really impose his physical advantages to create space

also to me the Corrales analogy is a bad example because while yes Diego had a height advantage he did not enjoy the benefit Wlad does of not worrying about being the same weight as Mayweather

[B.U.R.N.E.R]

This is an incredibly ****** statement.

The educated in this post have already disagreed with you on that statement Burner and in that group I am including Reed, Eaner and myself.

Man do you want to name call or talk boxing?


"Hes not even one of the Top Heavies period for defense."


Thats what I said and hes not.

You can pout him up there with Jack Johnson? Like really? Ali?

Cmon man. You're a Wlad fan. Fine. But hes not of the Top Heavies for Defense. His name has never been mentioned as such until i seen this thread.

[THE REED]

Thank you Reed! This is all I wanted, a discussion based on the points I was thinking through in my head, not people just telling me stuff that I was already ahead of. Excellent post. I have a few counter points, but I agree with muc of what you said.

No Problem

Wlad parry's quite a bit. You are discounting him here. It's easy for him because he's so far away from the punches, but not as much as Floyd.

I won't say that Wlads parrying is obsolete, just that it is not on par.

I think we would both agree that Floyds defense MOSTLY depends on his parrying, blocking, and slipping.. and Wlads defense is MOSTLY based on leaning back away from the opponents shots.

It isn't that Wlad doesn't parry, I just don't think you can put it on the level that Floyd does it.. or even the amount of times it happens, in comparison.

Most of Wlads defensive is leaning straight back so that he is out of the reach of his opponent.

Leaning and using footwork, don't forget.

Wlad may use footwork... but is it on par with Floyd?

Again we are not discrediting Wlad as a defensive fighter, just comparing what he does to what Floyd does.

I would argue Floyd is a much more mobile fighter than Wlad.

Wlad does use footwork, but I would argue Floyd uses a lot more.

He actually does slip under your shots.

Wlad is too tall to slip under shots, not an option

Ok, but because Wlad cannot do that... does that mean we do not count it as a skill that Floyd utilizes?

This is what I was getting at... Floyd just has a lot more facets to his defensive game.

Just because Wlad cannot slip under his opponents shots like Floyd doesn't mean we ignore the fact that Floyd does in fact do this.. and it is in fact one more tool in his defensive shed.

Floyd can use his reflexes like Roy to make you miss.

Are not reflexes an inate advantage just like height?

They are, but you also have to take into account instincts.

It is also much easier to simply lean back with a 6" height advantage over your opponent... than it is to lean back, or slip under a shot with an opponent the same size as you (or at least similar in size).

Floyd can also stand in the pocket, block, parry, and counter shots standing 6 inches in front of you.

We're leaving out countering and jabs remember

You can leave it out if you want.

With that said.

Floyd can stand in the pocket, block, parry, and shoulder roll shots standing directly in front of you. You MUST have sound defensive skills in order to do that.

Can Wlad do that?

If an opponent gets too close he simply ties up... gets seperated and then maintains his distance again with his jab.

And again, we are not taking away from Wlads defense... we are just comparing who has more skills... who uses more tools with their defense.

His height does in fact give him the ability to lean back out of reach. It is what it is. This is his way of slipping cuz he's so damn tall

Slipping is more of a side to side movement, than a straight lean back.

Floyd will lean straight back as we've seen him do, but he will also use side to side lateral and head movement to slip your punches.

Again back to the point... Not that Wlad doesn't have good defense... just that Floyd utilizes a lot more.
Bottom line, as I've said. Floyd is waaaay slicker, and like you proved in your post above, has way more tools in the shed. But is it really more effective. For example. Kelly Pavlik (back when he was good) was blasting fools out with 1-2's all day. That is an effective offense. Is it more effective than a guy who has less ko's and less wins but has a more varied offense?

Little confused on your point... but I will say that the main reason that Wlad MAY IN FACT get hit less... is not necessarily based on his defense. But his skills to use his height and reach effectively. He keeps you at the end of his punches. While maintaining an average 5-6" height advantage and an averager 6-8" reach advantage.

His offense does in fact help create his defense by keeping his opponent away. On top of the fact they are gunshy.. because who wants to get caught by a Wlad right hand???? Christ.

On the flip side Floyds defense is exactly what keeps opponents unable to land punches.

[Walt Liquor]

and a jackhammer jab that prevents inside fighters from coming in.


Case in point. A lot of Chambers best work against Dimintrenko came when he was in his perfect range...a much closer radius than that of Dmintrenko

against Wlad he simply could not and would not venture inside of Wlad's punch radius because every time he did he got a face full of jab.

True, true true. this is an area where I am unclear. Can a punch be considered part of your d? I know I use a jab in sparring as part of my d, but mine (im 100% sure of this next statement) doesn't discourage shi t like Wlad's does. If you are jabbing as a defensive measure (keep people off of you), is it part of defense?



not necessarily. Short of Judah's mental collapse and DLH's fatigue most of Floyd's opponents kept coming.
Point taken


in some way yes Floyd has a physical advantage but the key word to me is that he doesn't necessarily impose it in the same manner as Wlad. He has to use his skill alongside his advantages to create defensive traps whereas Wlad can really impose his physical advantages to create space I say Wlad does the same thing. He uses techniques to go along with his god given talents.
also to me the Corrales analogy is a bad example because while yes Diego had a height advantage he did not enjoy the benefit Wlad does of not worrying about being the same weight as Mayweather- you are right, point taken

burner, I am not a wlad fan bro. please find me a post in the past where I hig wlad's nuts. i like vit way more. this is just something I was thinking about because he is a defensive minded fighter and never seems to lose rounds lately. and in my thread I'm talking about the last 3 years. not atg defense man, stop twisting things around.

[Eaner0919]

I will say this

the days of the Klitschkos being labelled one dimensional should be just about over

[Walt Liquor]

No Problem





I won't say that Wlads parrying is obsolete, just that it is not on par.

I think we would both agree that Floyds defense MOSTLY depends on his parrying, blocking, and slipping.. and Wlads defense is MOSTLY based on leaning back away from the opponents shots.

It isn't that Wlad doesn't parry, I just don't think you can put it on the level that Floyd does it.. or even the amount of times it happens, in comparison.




Wlad may use footwork... but is it on par with Floyd?

Again we are not discrediting Wlad as a defensive fighter, just comparing what he does to what Floyd does.

I would argue Floyd is a much more mobile fighter than Wlad.

Wlad does use footwork, but I would argue Floyd uses a lot more.





Ok, but because Wlad cannot do that... does that mean we do not count it as a skill that Floyd utilizes?

This is what I was getting at... Floyd just has a lot more facets to his defensive game.

Just because Wlad cannot slip under his opponents shots like Floyd doesn't mean we ignore the fact that Floyd does in fact do this.. and it is in fact one more tool in his defensive shed.




They are, but you also have to take into account instincts.

It is also much easier to simply lean back with a 6" height advantage over your opponent... than it is to lean back, or slip under a shot with an opponent the same size as you (or at least similar in size).




You can leave it out if you want.

With that said.

Floyd can stand in the pocket, block, parry, and shoulder roll shots standing directly in front of you. You MUST have sound defensive skills in order to do that.

Can Wlad do that?

If an opponent gets too close he simply ties up... gets seperated and then maintains his distance again with his jab.

And again, we are not taking away from Wlads defense... we are just comparing who has more skills... who uses more tools with their defense.



Slipping is more of a side to side movement, than a straight lean back.

Floyd will lean straight back as we've seen him do, but he will also use side to side lateral and head movement to slip your punches.



Little confused on your point... but I will say that the main reason that Wlad MAY IN FACT get hit less... is not necessarily based on his defense. But his skills to use his height and reach effectively. He keeps you at the end of his punches. While maintaining an average 5-6" height advantage and an averager 6-8" reach advantage.

His offense does in fact help create his defense by keeping his opponent away. On top of the fact they are gunshy.. because who wants to get caught by a Wlad right hand???? Christ.

On the flip side Floyds defense is exactly what keeps opponents unable to land punches.

my point is this reed,

I know that floyd has WAAAAAAY more tools than wlad. a lot of that has to do with size. no one 6-7 245 can do what floyd does (hence floyd's better reflexes, footwork, slipping etc). however with the tools he has (leaning back to dodge shots, using footwork to get out of range, holding, and parrying) is his overall defense more effective in the ring.

I was thinknig about it because the guy can't seem t olose a round AND doesn't really have a high punch output at all. also (and I know I said to leave this out), his jab is used alternitly as a defensive punch and an offense punch. the jab is used to set up his right (he used to hook off it) and to keep you off of him.

I think he's an extremly effective defensive fighter. Not the wizard that floyd or calderon are, but extremly effective.

[THE REED]

my point is this reed,

I know that floyd has WAAAAAAY more tools than wlad. a lot of that has to do with size. no one 6-7 245 can do what floyd does (hence floyd's better reflexes, footwork, slipping etc). however with the tools he has (leaning back to dodge shots, using footwork to get out of range, holding, and parrying) is his overall defense more effective in the ring.

I was thinknig about it because the guy can't seem t olose a round AND doesn't really have a high punch output at all. also (and I know I said to leave this out), his jab is used alternitly as a defensive punch and an offense punch. the jab is used to set up his right (he used to hook off it) and to keep you off of him.

I think he's an extremly effective defensive fighter. Not the wizard that floyd or calderon are, but extremly effective.

Well if I can't use Floyds countershots.. which IS part of his defense as well... then we can't be using Wlads offense as well.


But with what you said... IMO... the MAIN reason Wlads opponents are not landing as much on Wlad, regardless of their limited ability in the first place... is because Wlad fights tall, and he keeps you on the end of his punches, while exercising a 6-8" reach advantage..

This has everything to do with how much Wlad gets hit.

You are in there with a guy who is standing 6" over you and he can hit you.. when you can't hit him.

This is going to limit ANYONES punch output, and in relation... going to decrease the amount that Wlad gets hit because of it.



We aren't taking away from Wlad as utilizing his tools to the best of his ability.. and for a heavyweight, exercising good defense.

But when it comes to the best in the game, would you agree that although Wlad is good.. is not quite on par with Floyd?