Vitali KlitschkO

[hollister]

Ali had Parkinson's disease, he was already slurring his words when he fought Spinks those two times. Louis came out of retirement, and didn't really train. Lewis, when in shape, was the most effective he had been in his career when he retired, and that showed in the Tyson fight and the Rahman II fight. He may not have trained properly, but the only difference was that he was in with a big strong man like him that he couldn't rough up by leaning his weight on his opponent and hitting him, and that man was hitting him back instead of letting him do what he wanted to. Sure, VK lost the fight and all, but don't try to compare the fighter he lost to with a 36 or 38 year old Ali, that's reaching.

Still looking?

[hollister]

Lewis beat a washed up Tyson in a fight where he was 36, and Tyson was 35. Lewis then took off a year and put on a bunch of weight, and came back to fight Vitali
when he 37.

He had been inactive, came in at his highest career weight (256.5), and was 37. That's far from a prime and conditioned Lennox Lewis.

Was it this one?

[hollister]

A IN SHAPE Lennox Lewis was as effective as he ever had been.

Lewis fought as well as he ever had, and had been fighting in the 250's on and off for a while when he fought Vitali. He may not have entered the fight in top condition (his fault), but he was not past it by any means. Stamina is one thing, but he was as fast as he ever had been at 37, considering he never posessed blinding hand or footspeed in the first place. Louis had lost the desire to train, or fight for that matter, and was only doing it for the money. He was in terrible shape for that fight, and many of them before that for that matter. Ali, no matter what shape he was in physically, would not have been successful at that point in his career, his reflexes were gone, his mind wasn't right, and he had a thyroid problem. Lewis cannot be compared to those two because his size would have allowed him to fight past the age limits of many other smaller fighters, had he chosen to do so, just as it will Wlad and VK, again, if they choose to do so.

See, that's where I explained that I meant an IN SHAPE Lewis, let's see if you address that...

[hollister]

The point is, nearly every Heavyweight champion is less and less effective after the age of 35. Beating Tyson didn't take a lot for Lewis, because Tyson was a mental mess.

A 37 year old Lewis not fighting for a year, gaining weight, and then coming in at a career high (the only other time he came near to that was in the 1st Rahman fight) was FAR from a sharp primed Lennox Lewis. There is no room for debate on this.

No, it looks like you said he was out of shape, which I had not contradicted, who's ignoring things?

[hollister]

Lennox gained weight because he ate too much, that had nothing to do with age, and when he was in shape, his skills were at the level they had been for some time. His speed had not noticeably deteriorated because he was never that fast. The point is, when he trained, he was the same fighter he had always been, he was still capable of obtaining his conditioning, which is the only thing he lacked in his less than stellar performance. Ali and Louis are both considered smaller Heavyweights by today's standards that relied on their handspeed (Ali, footspeed to some extent), and that was gone from Louis, Ali could not have been successful no matter what kind of shape he was in, he had lost everything that won him fights. If Lewis chooses to retire, then that's his decision, but he was never forced into it because he was old or past it, too many people confuse his laziness with age setting in.

This is where I tried to explain that Lewis' condition at the time of retirement was his fault, as opposed to Louis and Ali, who were both losing and in terrible shape when they retired, wonder what you'll have to say about that...

[hollister]

You don't know where his skill level was at, becuase it didn't really take a lot of it to beat Rahman (who's nothing special) or Tyson, who wasn't even mentally fit to have been involved in that fight.

And it was after those fights that Lewis took another year off, didn't train, and put on weight. That is not a good thing for a fighter that age.

Again, the bottom line is that the Lennox Lewis that Vitali fought was not the same Lewis from years earlier, AND was inacitve, and at a career high weight.

There is no way around it. You're twisting things if you're trying to say that Vitali was in with Lewis even close to at his best.

...And you respond to me by saying that Tyson and Rahman weren't tests for Lennox, and now you're just beginning to imply that I'm saying that VK fought Lewis at his best, which remember, I have never said so far...

[hollister]

You're not reading my post, I'm saying that Lewis was a fighter that still could have been at his best, had he chosen to. Taking time off, overeating, and not training are all things he did to himself. He retired when he still had some good fights left in him, had he chosen to dedicate himself and train properly. My point is, he retired because he chose to do so, Louis and Ali were both past it, and really had no chance of regaining the title, if anyone was ever forced to retire, it was them. That's why what I was trying to say was that it would not really be fair to compare Lewis' situation to that of Ali or Louis.

This is where I explain, again, that Lewis was a fighter that, had he chosen to train properly, could have been as good as he ever had been, and reinerated that his weight and lack of conditioning, however severe, was his own fault, and was not a result of age simply catching up with him, again, as opposed to Ali who had Parkinson's and was truly shot, wonder how ou'll address that...

[Bozo_no no]

All you're doing now is taking sevaral posts from the course of 6 or 7 pages, and taking them out of context.

I answered any question you can pretend to dream up, and made my point clearly.

All your doing now, is blowing smoke, and proving what a hypocrite you are for not being able to quote ONE post in the threwad about Wlad (when you were lying and making up things and saying I said them) to spamming the thread with posts from earlier that are now out of sequence and context.

I read them when they were posted, it was earlier today and yesterday.

All you've done is skipped from one topic to another.

The bottom line, is that I was adressing the opening post of the thread about Vitali's losses not being "Real" when you jumped in and took issue with one of several examples I gave in making a comment about when (in my opinion) Lennox Lewis should have retired.

You just get more and more desperate as this goes on.

[tracylee]

LOL, I cant believe you two are still going at it strong! DAMMMYYYYNNNN!!!!!!

[hollister]

No what you're doing is making an assumption, and guessing.

You have no idea what Lewis would look like at 37 years old had he not been inactive for one year and had come in at better condition. You don't know that his skill and reflex would have been any better, because it had been a year since he had fought, and when he did, it was agaisnt a version of Tyson that shouldn't have been there.

All you're doing is guessing.

Lewis should have retired after beating Tyson, and he's a smart man for walking away when he did.

What's the sense in fighting until you find out your skills have diminished.

You make no sense.

Heavyweights are less and less effective after 35, and there's a list of former champions who are examples of that.

Here, you tell me that I'm guessing, and that the notion that Lewis could have trained, and if in shape, could have been as effective as he had ever been, and still could have been succesfull (and remember, this is opposed to Ali and Louis, who were truly shot at the tim they retired) makes no sense to you. And of course, you completely ignore the fact that of the heavyweight champs who were dominant, none were as large as Lewis.