Comments Thread For: Tony Bellew cuts through clutter of Imane Khelif controversy

[SteveM]

Why? You definitely don’t hold men’s sports to the same standards. No one ever argued that Michael Phelps shouldn’t be allowed to compete against men because he’s a genetic freak compared to them, even though he absolutely is. Men’s sports exist for “men”, not for “men with a specific range of hormones, muscle mass, and bone density”. Likewise women’s sports exist for “women” not for “women with a specific range of hormones, muscle mass, and bone density”. In every other circumstance than this politicized trans debate, all naturally occurring advantages are considered “fair” in sports. Again, this debate only exists because politicians realized they can make you hate their opponents by riling you up with it.

I am a big fan of Occam’s Razor. Occam’s Razor proposes the simplest explanation that requires the fewest assumptions is the one most likely to be true.

So....

If it walks like a duck (has masculine features) wags its tail like a duck (elevated levels of testosterone) and quacks like a duck (shows physical dominance in many fights) - it is a duck. (has an unfair competitive advantage)

[Roder]

Is this dan_b?

Nope. I don't know who that is.

[Roder]

I am a big fan of Occam’s Razor. Occam’s Razor proposes the simplest explanation that requires the fewest assumptions is the one most likely to be true.

So....

If it walks like a duck (has masculine features) wags its tail like a duck (elevated levels of testosterone) and quacks like a duck (shows physical dominance in many fights) - it is a duck. (has an unfair competitive advantage)

What if, at the same time, it doesn't have duck sex organs (a penis or testicles), duck reproductive abilities (doesn't produce little wiggly male gametes) or a duck life history (raised as a girl/woman)?

Look, it's just a fact that the world has edge cases at the boundaries between these two categories. Yes, that makes life a little harder to think about and political fights less black-and-white. But it's still true.

[CPNUTKnockoutFreshMart]

Where is this information that Khelif has XY Chromosomes coming from anyway ? I have only seen it on comments here. Not anywhere like a medical report or anything from the Olympics or other agency. It makes me wonder if it is true , because if it was, we'd know the origins of it. Some women are just manly , I worked with a lady that I thought was a dude at first since I didn't work closely with her. After I found out that she wasn't a dude , I decided that she was a manly lesbian , or a transperson. Eventually, after I started working more closely with her , I come to find out that she's married to a guy , has three kids and is just a woman with short hair, and conventionally unattractive .( I don't want to call her bad built and ugly because she is a really nice person) I learned a lesson , don't assume about people when you don't know.
What really blows my mind is the people who, when told the truth of the matter about Khelif, refuse to accept it. She's a woman , was born a woman, and will die a woman. What more do you want ? Do you need to stick your hands down her pants before you will finally believe it ? Is it that hard to admit that you were wrong about something . It's really s t u p i d , a low IQ trait , to not be able or willing to change your mind about something when confronted with new evidence of the truth. Khelif never was a man beating up women , the person who came out with that had an agenda , same as that dirtbag Christopher Rufo had when he decided to turn Critical Race Theory and DEI in fodder for the Culture Wars. That's what people do when they don't have any answers for real problems. Manufacture problems out of thin air. Unfortunately, it works on a segment of the population.

[Smash]

thanks tony for clearing this all up for us, tony got held back in every school year he was in & is still in 1st class in his local school

[Smash]

"In May 2019, the Court of Arbitration for Sport rejected Semenya's challenge in a 2–1 decision, paving the way for the new rules to come into effect. Although the CAS agreed with Semenya that the rules were discriminatory, it concluded that this discrimination was "a necessary, reasonable and proportionate means of achieving the IAAF's aim of preserving the integrity of female athletics"

Same type of thing ongoing for years with caster semenya, i would say its quite likely that the 2 olympic boxers are in the same boat as her but caster submitted to tests to see what differences she has but noone would dare say that to these 2 boxers for fear of offending them it seems so we will never know the true facts of the case in that case, the IOC take a hizzy fit whenever anyone mentions them but World Athletics realise there is an issue with them and wont budge on their rules it seems, boxing is actually more dangerous than racing someone around a track as well actually

[4truth]

I always thought that gender was binary, you are either M or F but that isn't so. Even though the vast majority are one or the other there's a lot of in between.

If you have a Y chromosome and testosterone producing testicles, even if you have female genitalia and those testicles are internal, you should not be competing with women who have no testicles. Women's sports should be exclusive to XX chromosome women, no testicles.

I really don't think this is that complicated.

[SteveM]

What if, at the same time, it doesn't have duck *** organs (a penis or testicles), duck reproductive abilities (doesn't produce little wiggly male gametes) or a duck life history (raised as a girl/woman)?

Look, it's just a fact that the world has edge cases at the boundaries between these two categories. Yes, that makes life a little harder to think about and political fights less black-and-white. But it's still true.

I think how she was raised is irrelevant here. Whether Khelifa and Lin Yu-ting are women is an unnecessary conflation. All the obvious indications point to both of them having raised levels of testosterone giving them an unfair advantage against most sportswomen. That being the case you have to decide whether they be allowed to compete against those disadvantaged women. In boxing it is especially topical because increased strength can lead to increased damage, unlike running for example.

It boils down to where you are on inclusivity. Do you decide in favor of the minority or the majority? I would argue in favor of the majority because that is the norm in dem0cratic societies.

[Roder]

I think how she was raised is irrelevant here. Whether Khelifa and Lin Yu-ting are women is an unnecessary conflation. All the obvious indications point to both of them having raised levels of testosterone giving them an unfair advantage against most sportswomen. That being the case you have to decide whether they be allowed to compete against those disadvantaged women. In boxing it is especially topical because increased strength can lead to increased damage, unlike running for example.

It boils down to where you are on inclusivity. Do you promote in favor of the minority or the majority? I would argue in favor of the majority because that is the norm in dem0cratic societies.

Should Nikolai Valuev have been allowed to compete against men? He was 7 feet tall and over 300lbs due to gigantism and a disorder that caused excessive growth hormone. You can’t possibly make any safety-based argument that Valuev was less of a danger to the average male heavyweight than Khelif is to women in her weight class (she is demonstrably not a great danger; she has a very low KO percentage).

[Roder]

I always thought that gender was binary, you are either M or F but that isn't so. Even though the vast majority are one or the other there's a lot of in between.

If you have a Y chromosome and testosterone producing testicles, even if you have female genitalia and those testicles are internal, you should not be competing with women who have no testicles. Women's sports should be exclusive to XX chromosome women, no testicles.

I really don't think this is that complicated.

Why should chromosomes be the standard? Why not external sex organs, visible with the naked eye? Why not life history? Genetic testing didn’t even exist until the 1950s and women’s sports existed before that.