What Makes a Good Chin (it’s not what you think)

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  • Ghost Jab
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    #1

    What Makes a Good Chin (it’s not what you think)

    I am often appalled at how little about biophysics posters on here know. They seem to think that bigger is always better in a fight. However, they could not be more wrong. In fact, size is often one of the least important factors in a fight. What is important is speed, agility, and strength. These are the qualities that determine who will win a fight, not size.

    I will give an example. Evander Holyfield was slightly lighter and leaner than Mike Tyson when they fought on the 9th of November 1996, and yet he pushed him around the ring en route to a memorable and an historic win on that night.

    I think what surprises me most about this is in a lot of posts I see regarding two of the best heavyweights of this generation, Tyson Fury and Deontay Wilder.

    First of all, posters state that Tyson Fury cannot be defeated by Oleksandr Usyk because Oleksandr is comparatively small. They might be right, but in my opinion, we’ll never know until they fight. Usyk uses his opponents weaknesses to his advantage, and he turns their strengths into weaknesses.

    While Fury may indeed emerge victorious in the end, I foresee it being down to his indomitable will and his Mayweather-like ability to adapt to difficult situations. But I don’t see him bullying Usyk like he was able to do against Wilder.

    I think the posters’ errors lie mainly in the metaphorical neurogenesis of thought of that moment of being astonished at how easily Fury was able to bully Wilder and get up from his punches, and ascribe this only to his large size. I remember the amazing moments from all those fights, they are one of those things like when the Berlin Wall fell that people simply remember in their subconscious. They knew where they were when it happened, what color shirt they had on, and what they ate and drank that night for dinner.

    Where they go wrong is that they take this example and state the obvious, namely that Usyk is much smaller than Wilder, and extrapolate this into a firm, and to themselves, an ironclad conclusion that Usyk would fare similar as Wilder did, only much worse due to his smaller size and relative lack of knockout power.

    I think this shows a certain level of immaturity, an inability to read the coffee pot. This leads me to my second point, mainly that I am even more astonished at how many posters on this site seem so uninitiated to what would make a person difficult to knock out.

    For example, it is often stated on here that Fighter A (let’s be honest, usually it’s stated in reference to Deontay) would most certainly defeat, or have defeated, Fighter B by devastating knockout, because only Tyson Fury was able to get up, and that only because he is so big.

    I hypothesize that size was only a small part of it. There are more important factors involved such as skull density, thickness, and level of hydration.

    And as anyone who has studied physics knows, a lower center of gravity is advantageous for balance and the will to survive. This is because it is easier to stay upright and not fall over when the center of gravity is low.

    If someone does fall, it is easier to get back up again.

    A lower center of gravity also makes it easier to move around in general and have good agility.

    Don’t believe me? Take a skilled soccer midfielder like N’golo Kante, and compare his agility and balance to that of a skilled basketball center like Nikola Jokic. While both are tremendous athletes, Kante will be lightyears ahead of Jokic in terms of balance and agility.

    This is why I would like to postulate that a heavyweight who is comparatively short, has a great chin, good agility, fast hands, and has shown he can get up from a hard punch could quite possibly actually be a tougher opponent for Wilder than Fury himself.

    With that said, not every shorter, stockier heavyweight is prime Tua. And I think that Fury’s win against Wilder may be more down to his incredible spirit and indomitable will than anything else. Only time will tell, but I think that posters on this site should have a more open mind about what it would take, or has taken in the past, to beat Wilder, and not marry themselves so easily to the conclusion that Fury only beat Wilder and took his power well due to his enormous size.

    I am not trying to come up with any sort of crazy theory on here, and have proven time and again that I neither detract from Fury and Wilder, nor do I think either of them are as unbeatable as their most fervent fans claim.

    Lets keep an open mind, and approach the discussion with an appreciation of the way things work in physics and everyday life.

    Wilder is not a machine nor a magician. He is a human being who operates according to the same biophysical principles as anyone else, and these can be exploited and negated under the right conditions.

    Likewise, Fury is an astonishingly good and agile fighter for his height and size, but he too has weaknesses that could be used against him by the right, adequately skilled smaller heavyweight.

    Usyk very well may be that heavyweight.
    Last edited by Ghost Jab; 01-14-2023, 05:08 PM.
  • Roadblock
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    #2
    What makes a good chin, seeing the punch and the ability to take the power of the punch, a very subtle subconscious looseness at the moment of impact, the second line of defence comes to the muscle and structure to absorb the power lessening the brain whip, then driving it all is the character of the fighter at his core, is he game, is he stubborn, is he determined, all contribute to taking a hard punch.

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    • Ghost Jab
      Espiran the Great & Noble
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      #3
      Originally posted by Roadblock
      What makes a good chin, seeing the punch and the ability to take the power of the punch, a very subtle subconscious looseness at the moment of impact, the second line of defence comes to the muscle and structure to absorb the power lessening the brain whip, then driving it all is the character of the fighter at his core, is he game, is he stubborn, is he determined, all contribute to taking a hard punch.
      Your word picture reminds me a lot of a particular punch Canelo took from Daniel Jacobs. It was a hard punch, but he rode it well. Even though it thudded ominously, Canelo clearly has a good chin and also knows how to take it in the right way.

      Another example is the third Wilder - Fury fight, where Wilder set up the exact same shot off the ropes that he would later use to knock out Helenius. Fury seemed to take a much cleaner version of that shot, and he quickly moved his forehead foreword and down so as not to take the shot on the chin. Excellent response that probably prevented a TKO loss.

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      • Boxing 112
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        #4
        Originally posted by Ghost Jab
        I am often appalled at how little about biophysics posters on here know. They seem to think that bigger is always better in a fight. However, they could not be more wrong. In fact, size is often one of the least important factors in a fight. What is important is speed, agility, and strength. These are the qualities that determine who will win a fight, not size.

        I will give an example. Evander Holyfield was slightly lighter and leaner than Mike Tyson when they fought on the 9th of November 1996, and yet he pushed him around the ring en route to a memorable and an historic win on that night.

        I think what surprises me most about this is in a lot of posts I see regarding two of the best heavyweights of this generation, Tyson Fury and Deontay Wilder.

        First of all, posters state that Tyson Fury cannot be defeated by Oleksandr Usyk because Oleksandr is comparatively small. They might be right, but in my opinion, we’ll never know until they fight. Usyk uses his opponents weaknesses to his advantage, and he turns their strengths into weaknesses.

        While Fury may indeed emerge victorious in the end, I foresee it being down to his indomitable will and his Mayweather-like ability to adapt to difficult situations. But I don’t see him bullying Usyk like he was able to do against Wilder.

        I think the posters’ errors lie mainly in the metaphorical neurogenesis of thought of that moment of being astonished at how easily Fury was able to bully Wilder and get up from his punches, and ascribe this only to his large size. I remember the amazing moments from all those fights, they are one of those things like when the Berlin Wall fell that people simply remember in their subconscious. They knew where they were when it happened, what color shirt they had on, and what they ate and drank that night for dinner.

        Where they go wrong is that they take this example and state the obvious, namely that Usyk is much smaller than Wilder, and extrapolate this into a firm, and to themselves, an ironclad conclusion that Usyk would fare similar as Wilder did, only much worse due to his smaller size and relative lack of knockout power.

        I think this shows a certain level of immaturity, an inability to read the coffee pot. This leads me to my second point, mainly that I am even more astonished at how many posters on this site seem so uninitiated to what would make a person difficult to knock out.

        For example, it is often stated on here that Fighter A (let’s be honest, usually it’s stated in reference to Deontay) would most certainly defeat, or have defeated, Fighter B by devastating knockout, because only Tyson Fury was able to get up, and that only because he is so big.

        I hypothesize that size was only a small part of it. There are more important factors involved such as skull density, thickness, and level of hydration.

        And as anyone who has studied physics knows, a lower center of gravity is advantageous for balance and the will to survive. This is because it is easier to stay upright and not fall over when the center of gravity is low.

        If someone does fall, it is easier to get back up again.

        A lower center of gravity also makes it easier to move around in general and have good agility.

        Don’t believe me? Take a skilled soccer midfielder like N’golo Kante, and compare his agility and balance to that of a skilled basketball center like Nikola Jokic. While both are tremendous athletes, Kante will be lightyears ahead of Jokic in terms of balance and agility.

        This is why I would like to postulate that a heavyweight who is comparatively short, has a great chin, good agility, fast hands, and has shown he can get up from a hard punch could quite possibly actually be a tougher opponent for Wilder than Fury himself.

        With that said, not every shorter, stockier heavyweight is prime Tua. And I think that Fury’s win against Wilder may be more down to his incredible spirit and indomitable will than anything else. Only time will tell, but I think that posters on this site should have a more open mind about what it would take, or has taken in the past, to beat Wilder, and not marry themselves so easily to the conclusion that Fury only beat Wilder and took his power well due to his enormous size.

        I am not trying to come up with any sort of crazy theory on here, and have proven time and again that I neither detract from Fury and Wilder, nor do I think either of them are as unbeatable as their most fervent fans claim.

        Lets keep an open mind, and approach the discussion with an appreciation of the way things work in physics and everyday life.

        Wilder is not a machine nor a magician. He is a human being who operates according to the same biophysical principles as anyone else, and these can be exploited and negated under the right conditions.

        Likewise, Fury is an astonishingly good and agile fighter for his height and size, but he too has weaknesses that could be used against him by the right, adequately skilled smaller heavyweight.

        Usyk very well may be that heavyweight.
        No one is reading all that but good effort writing your thesis

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        • Dakuwaqa
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          #5
          Big wide head/jaw

          Thick short neck

          Dense bones

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          • sicko
            The Truth Hurts
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            #6
            getting dropped does not mean you have a weak chin, proof of that is one of my all time favorites JMM, JMM been dropped multiple times in his Hall of Fame Career but was NEVER Stopped not even by a Prime Power Punching Pacman

            So going down doesn't not indicate a "WEAK CHIN" and I argue this for Beterbiev as well currently who people think has a Suspect Chin, same with Andrade, Haney and a few other current fighters who some fans hate so much that they claim they have a suspect Chin because they was Buckled in a fight

            Fury clearly has a great chin to take Wilder's Power Not Once, Not Twice but THREE Times and getting up from his Power Repeatedly and not only finishing those fights but winning them (Long Count, He Cheated Blah Blah Blah get over it Wilder Fans WTF)

            When you have a Weak Chin, you don't get up or you don't recover from Big Shots, my All Time Favorite Heavyweight Lennox Lewis had that Weak Chin label. Late Great Emmanuel Steward made him fight at a Slower Pace and use that Long Jab and his Chin held up for the rest of his Legendary Career so you can work around a Suspect Chin for sure. Did the Same with Wlad as well.

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            • PRINCEKOOL
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              #7
              Pound for pound, Usyk is a by far better athlete than Tyson Fury 'If we want to get specific'.

              That is why, I have never ****** on much about Fury's dimensions.

              Fury is no genetic marvel, and I don't think he this outstanding athlete to the level his hardcore fans and the media try to make out.

              But the man can fight, and he knows how to box 'There is no denying that'.

              Usyk would most likely beat Fury in every single athletic discipline within Track and Field Athletics.

              Sprinting, distance running, jumping, and throwing. I don't think Fury beats him in any single event.

              And I also think Usyk is stronger than Fury, in all compound gym based exercises.

              Overall I rate Usyk pound for pound to be a better athlete than Tyson Fury.

              People have to ask themselves this question? Who has Tyson Fury bulled about, and pushed around the ring?

              Has Fury in all honesty pushed another Super Heavyweight around the ring? No.

              Wilder has never been known for his brute strength, in fact his brute strength and overall stability are not his best attributes.

              It was impressive how Fury showed courage, and fought Wilder on the offensive 'During the second and third fights'. But I don't think it was a insurmountable achievement, to bull a fighter who he out weighed by 40 pounds around the ring 'A fighter who is not renowned for his brute strength'.

              Note: I have talked about and highlighted the narratives which Fury's hardcore fans create. And this narrative that Fury is this hulk like super heavyweight, that has this super strength is in all honesty complete nonsense. All of this is based off Fury pushing around Wilder, who is a fighter I rate highly 'But Wilder is also a fighter who is not really a strong Heavyweight, Wilder's brute strength is one of his worst attributes'.

              But let me make this very clear. Tyson Fury has a good level of strength, his strength inside the boxing ring is functional and specific 'I just don't rate Fury up there with the strongest Heavyweights of all-time' Fury is nowhere near them.

              Notice how Fury fights most if not all other super Heavyweights, Fury boxed and stayed clear of Kiltschko. And although I don't class Chisora or Whyte entirely as Super Heavyweights 'Fury again fought these two fighters at long range'.

              If Tyson Fury would of fought Anthony Joshua, I don't think he would of fought Joshua on the offensive. Fury would of attempted to try and out box Joshua from Mid-Long range, Fury is not bulling or pushing Joshua about.

              I still make Tyson Fury the favorite against Usyk. And stylistically, this is a fight were Fury can apply his superior inside game. But against another Super Heavyweight who is strong enough to not be pushed about by him? I think Tyson Fury will be reluctant to engage these fighters with his inside game.




              Last edited by PRINCEKOOL; 01-14-2023, 07:01 PM.

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              • Mikeh333
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                #8
                Originally posted by Roadblock
                What makes a good chin, seeing the punch and the ability to take the power of the punch, a very subtle subconscious looseness at the moment of impact, the second line of defence comes to the muscle and structure to absorb the power lessening the brain whip, then driving it all is the character of the fighter at his core, is he game, is he stubborn, is he determined, all contribute to taking a hard punch.
                Outstanding analysis. I agree a good chin is partly a function of things we cannot see such as the “wiring” of the nervous system, allowing some fighters to take tremendous blows, while others fall over unconscious. Conditioning has something to do with it as well. Well conditioned athlete can take more punishment than a poorly conditioned athlete.

                I agree that “will” plays a role in whether someone is prepared to take a beating and get back up. However, will is overrated. Almost all high-level professionals are prepared to risk their lives in the ring. Anthony Joshua, for instance, lacks neither will, nor conditioning. However he has a poor chin for physiological reasons that we can’t understand. It will only get worse with time.
                Last edited by Mikeh333; 01-14-2023, 07:04 PM.

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                • CubanGuyNYC
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                  #9
                  The ostensible topic is “what makes a good chin,” yet the OP made a case for attributes other than sheer size making the better fighter. I don’t think anyone with reasonable knowledge of combat sports would argue that size is the most important factor in a fight. But as the old adage goes: all things being equal, a good big man will always beat a good little man. That notion ought to fit in neatly with the attempt to examine fight phenomena through physics — mass x acceleration = force.

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                  • deathofaclown
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                    #10
                    Originally posted by sicko
                    getting dropped does not mean you have a weak chin, proof of that is one of my all time favorites JMM, JMM been dropped multiple times in his Hall of Fame Career but was NEVER Stopped not even by a Prime Power Punching Pacman

                    So going down doesn't not indicate a "WEAK CHIN" and I argue this for Beterbiev as well currently who people think has a Suspect Chin, same with Andrade, Haney and a few other current fighters who some fans hate so much that they claim they have a suspect Chin because they was Buckled in a fight

                    Fury clearly has a great chin to take Wilder's Power Not Once, Not Twice but THREE Times and getting up from his Power Repeatedly and not only finishing those fights but winning them (Long Count, He Cheated Blah Blah Blah get over it Wilder Fans WTF)

                    When you have a Weak Chin, you don't get up or you don't recover from Big Shots, my All Time Favorite Heavyweight Lennox Lewis had that Weak Chin label. Late Great Emmanuel Steward made him fight at a Slower Pace and use that Long Jab and his Chin held up for the rest of his Legendary Career so you can work around a Suspect Chin for sure. Did the Same with Wlad as well.
                    Yeah, I often use Juan Manuel Marquez as an example for this

                    It’s funny because people just look at the knockdown and assume the fighter can’t take a punch because they got put down, but there’s so many factors involved in why fighter could go on the floor. Cunningham putting fury down is a good example. The only reason fury goes down from that shot it is because he was just completely squared up and if you get caught completely square like that with a hard enough shot, that there’s really no place to go apart from backwards and down, it doesn’t necessarily mean you are badly hurt.

                    Froch had a great chin, but he also got caught completely square and crossing his feet against Groves and hit with a shot that could only send him down on his back, although he was actually hurt from that because Groves was a big puncher and got a free shot. But if Froch wasn’t so square on, that shot probably buzzes him, but possibly doesn’t actually put him on the floor. A lot of knockdowns are just fighters putting themselves in bad positions with their balance and positioning.

                    A lot of people don’t seem to think about these things.

                    pretty much anyone can get buzzed anyway, but it’s really how you recover. I think the notion of a bad and good chin is sometimes overstated, and the bigger problem is fighters who get hit and stay hit. Although there is a few that just can’t take a shot whatsoever .

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