That's what happens when you neglect your craft

[kafkod]

All those years of swerving tough opponents, knocking out no hopers and refusing unifications came back to bite Wilder. He never tested himself and because of that, he didn't realise how much he didn't know until it was too late.

[kafkod]

No, you don't need "skills at the highest level" in the heavyweight division. At least not in the total package way you're implying. They're all flawed in some way, none of them have everything the way some do in the lower weight classes. At heavyweight, all you need is to be special in some way, with maybe a small handful of elite skills or attributes. Wilder has power, heart, and chin at the highest level pound 4 pound, complimented by a 6'7 frame with twitchy hand speed when he comes in light. He's a special talent. There just happens to be one other bigger special talent right now who has his number.

Wilder's not out there losing fights he shouldn't be losing. It's not like he's been exposed since there isn't exactly a blueprint for others to follow. Not unless you're a 50lbs heavier giant with world class fight IQ and endurance never seen before at that size. Even then, it wasn't exactly easy work with Fury having to sc**** himself off the canvas 4 times in the trilogy.

You've already undercut your own argument, glossing over the obvious response that Wilder's particular set of skills probably stops everyone else in the division. Or at least if he's still the Wilder that fought Fury the first time before these wars... Fury himself thinks he's the only man who could've beaten Wilder. You should listen to him.

You don't think Fury might be a little bit biased there?

Truth is, we'll never know if Wilder would have stopped everyone else in the division because he didn't fight any of the top guys except Fury.

[Slicc]

No, you don't need "skills at the highest level" in the heavyweight division.

I didn't mean that he needed the highest level of skills, I meant that he'd need at least some skills against the highest level of opposition. A basic understanding of sticking & moving would make him twice as dangerous as he already is; He doesn't need to be Sweet Pea. He coulda gotten Fury outta there if he didn't go out there looking like a club fighter.

Wilder's not out there losing fights he shouldn't be losing.

Who did Wilder fight besides Fury and Ortiz? He went life and death with all of the 2 good fighters in his resume, and got starched twice by one of them.

You've already undercut your own argument, glossing over the obvious response that Wilder's particular set of skills probably stops everyone else in the division.

He has a puncher's chance against anyone good, and that's it. Put a prime fighter with decent ring IQ and pop in front of him, and he more than likely gets rag dolled again. Hell, Frank Sanchez would probably turn him into a pack.

[01samuelc]

I would like to see him fight Whyte/Chisora to get his confidence back. Might be wrong but I would still favour wilder to stop everyone else if he's still the same.

[ClubberLang82]

I didn't mean that he needed the highest level of skills, I meant that he'd need at least some skills against the highest level of opposition. A basic understanding of sticking & moving would make him twice as dangerous as he already is; He doesn't need to be Sweet Pea. He coulda gotten Fury outta there if he didn't go out there looking like a club fighter.


Who did Wilder fight besides Fury and Ortiz? He went life and death with all of the 2 good fighters in his resume, and got starched twice by one of them.


He has a puncher's chance against anyone good, and that's it. Put a prime fighter with decent ring IQ and pop in front of him, and he more than likely gets rag dolled again. Hell, Frank Sanchez would probably turn him into a pack.

Comparing resumes of modern heavyweight champs is useless imo. The division was shallow until recently, and the best rarely end up fighting each other. You could just as easily say that Fury or Joshua beat nothing but mediocre fighters and an old Wlad. Fury's hit the deck a number of times throughout his career, went life and death with the likes of Otto Wallin. AJ's either lost or gone life and death any time he's been remotely tested... I'd say Ortiz was the most dangerous fighter any of them fought outside of Wilder and Fury fighting each other, and that includes Usyk.

I disagree with Wilder being a 'puncher's chance' type of fighter against anyone but Fury. Puncher's chance implies underdog, unlikely to land that punch and win. Fat Ruiz was a puncher's chance against 6'6 AJ with all the physical advantages. Wilder is better than that. He's the one with the physical advantages 99% of the time. He WILL land his punch. However, I do agree that Frank Sanchez is a problem. Almost like a younger, fresher Ortiz. Faster, but not as powerful.

[Slicc]

Comparing resumes of modern heavyweight champs is useless imo. The division was shallow until recently, and the best rarely end up fighting each other. You could just as easily say that Fury or Joshua beat nothing but mediocre fighters and an old Wlad.

You're really gonna call AJs and Fury's resume mediocre, while defending Wilder of all people. If guys like Whyte, Parker, Chisora and Povetkin are mediocre, then what was everyone Wilder fought prior to Ortiz? Wilder has one of the worst resumes of any heavyweight champion in the history of boxing.

Fury's hit the deck a number of times throughout his career, went life and death with the likes of Otto Wallin.

Yeah, and Wilder still couldn't knock him out.

AJ's either lost or gone life and death any time he's been remotely tested... I'd say Ortiz was the most dangerous fighter any of them fought outside of Wilder and Fury fighting each other, and that includes Usyk.

AJ started being matched tough as early as his 15th bout, while Wilder didn't face anyone good until his 40th. Keep in mind that AJ also hasn't boxed as long as Wilder. Ortiz is more dangerous than Usyk? Is that really a hill you wanna die on? The highlight of Ortiz's professional career was getting sparked twice by Wilder, his best win is still Bryant Jennings and he's long in the tooth at this point. Usyk is much more accomplished than Ortiz.

I disagree with Wilder being a 'puncher's chance' type of fighter against anyone but Fury. Puncher's chance implies underdog, unlikely to land that punch and win.

Offensively, Wilder doesn't have much beyond a 1-2, which is something everybody with a functioning brain will train to exploit. His only hope of beating anyone good, is to survive long enough to land a clean right hand and hope that either they stay down or can be finished right after. His style is the epitome of a puncher's chance.

Fat Ruiz was a puncher's chance against 6'6 AJ with all the physical advantages. However, I do agree that Frank Sanchez is a problem. Almost like a younger, fresher Ortiz. Faster, but not as powerful.

Ruiz has a wider selection of punches, much higher punch output and better gas tank than Wilder, despite being morbidly obese. That man you're calling fat has a better resume than Wilder.

Wilder is better than that. He's the one with the physical advantages 99% of the time. He WILL land his punch.

He can't get much out of his size, because he's incompetent. Example: He was conditioning Fury to look out for body shots in the 1st round, to the point that Fury started to throw check left hooks. A good response to that would've been to eventually feint a body jab and shoot a right hand upstairs. Would it have been guaranteed to work? No, but it would've been a smart adjustment nonetheless, and if it worked, it could've banked Wilder a knockdown at least.

He dropped Fury in the 4th round, because for some reason Fury just walked into him with a high guard. Fury got careless and handed Wilder a knockdown. If he stayed alert, he would've just taken Wilder out sooner.

[ClubberLang82]

You're really gonna call AJs and Fury's resume mediocre, while defending Wilder of all people. If guys like Whyte, Parker, Chisora and Povetkin are mediocre, then what was everyone Wilder fought prior to Ortiz? Wilder has one of the worst resumes of any heavyweight champion in the history of boxing.


Yeah, and Wilder still couldn't knock him out.


AJ started being matched tough as early as his 15th bout, while Wilder didn't face anyone good until his 40th. Keep in mind that AJ also hasn't boxed as long as Wilder. Ortiz is more dangerous than Usyk? Is that really a hill you wanna die on? The highlight of Ortiz's professional career was getting sparked twice by Wilder, his best win is still Bryant Jennings and he's long in the tooth at this point. Usyk is much more accomplished than Ortiz.


Offensively, Wilder doesn't have much beyond a 1-2, which is something everybody with a functioning brain will train to exploit. His only hope of beating anyone good, is to survive long enough to land a clean right hand and hope that either they stay down or can be finished right after. His style is the epitome of a puncher's chance.


Ruiz has a wider selection of punches, much higher punch output and better gas tank than Wilder, despite being morbidly obese. That man you're calling fat has a better resume than Wilder.


He can't get much out of his size, because he's incompetent. Example: He was conditioning Fury to look out for body shots in the 1st round, to the point that Fury started to throw check left hooks. A good response to that would've been to eventually feint a body jab and shoot a right hand upstairs. Would it have been guaranteed to work? No, but it would've been a smart adjustment nonetheless, and if it worked, it could've banked Wilder a knockdown at least.

He dropped Fury in the 4th round, because for some reason Fury just walked into him with a high guard. Fury got careless and handed Wilder a knockdown. If he stayed alert, he would've just taken Wilder out sooner.

Guys like Whyte, Parker, Chisora and Povetkin mean nothing to me. They're all the same caliber of fighters Wlad would sleepwalk through for a decade. Povetkin being one of them, who was past 40 and out of his prime when he managed to sleep Dillian. Dillian, who i'm supposed to take seriously as a #1 contender and some sort of impressive win on a resume. Nah. They're gatekeepers.

Ortiz is better than those guys. I'd still bet the house on him to knockout AJ, and give Fury a good run for his money. No one but Wilder seems to want to fight Ortiz. No coincidence he's the other guy after Wilder and Fury that Hearn managed to let slip through the cracks for whatever reason.

Usyk is good pound for pound, but i'm not convinced he's a very good heavyweight. I need to see more. AJ losing on any given day doesn't surprise me. Arguably not even Usyk's toughest night at heavyweight. No way i'm ready to pick him over Ortiz.

Ruiz is talented, but showed the world he has bum discipline. Showed up fat to defend, and couldn't do anything about a shook AJ running for the scorecards.

Wilder is more than just a puncher's chance 1-2. Like I said, he will land the 1-2. These heavyweights can't avoid it, not even Fury who's just been able to weigh on Wilder with his presence and absorb it when it catches him. Wilder's mean, he's tough, and he's twitchy fast with those straight punches when he's on his game. Probably the best athlete in the division by a good amount. Has what team sports critics call 'the intangibles.' It's what separates him from a guy like Ajagba who has much of the same physical capability, but just isn't made of the same stuff to accomplish what Wilder has.

[Slicc]

Guys like Whyte, Parker, Chisora and Povetkin mean nothing to me. They're all the same caliber of fighters Wlad would sleepwalk through for a decade. Povetkin being one of them, who was past 40 and out of his prime when he managed to sleep Dillian. Dillian, who i'm supposed to take seriously as a #1 contender and some sort of impressive win on a resume. Nah. They're gatekeepers.

Yeah, I mean how could they possibly measure up to killers like Artur "Paper Mache" Szpilka, retired football player Gerald Washington, Bermaine "Paper Champ" Stiverne and Dominic "The Statue" Breazeale? I like how you say Wlad would sleepwalk through them, as if somehow that means Wilder would too. Wilder could never shine Wlad's shoes.

Ortiz is better than those guys. I'd still bet the house on him to knockout AJ, and give Fury a good run for his money. No one but Wilder seems to want to fight Ortiz. No coincidence he's the other guy after Wilder and Fury that Hearn managed to let slip through the cracks for whatever reason.

You talk about Ortiz like he's the Cuban Muhammad Ali for making a good account of himself, losing against a guy who can't box. Also, AJ tried to fight Ortiz, but Ortiz's promoter apparently screwed everything up by demanding ridiculous money. Fury had bigger fish to fry, like the guy who beat Ortiz twice and now a possible undisputed bout down the line.

Usyk is good pound for pound, but i'm not convinced he's a very good heavyweight. I need to see more. AJ losing on any given day doesn't surprise me. Arguably not even Usyk's toughest night at heavyweight. No way i'm ready to pick him over Ortiz.

To be fair, Usyk is elite, so most heavyweights wouldn't fare much better than AJ. Also, Ortiz has no good wins as a pro and at 42, I'd be surprised if he still has the cardio to go the distance with a fighter like Usyk, let alone beat him. Usyk probably wears him down and stops him in the middle or late rounds.

Wilder is more than just a puncher's chance 1-2. Like I said, he will land the 1-2. These heavyweights can't avoid it, not even Fury who's just been able to weigh on Wilder with his presence and absorb it when it catches him. Wilder's mean, he's tough, and he's twitchy fast with those straight punches when he's on his game. Probably the best athlete in the division by a good amount. Has what team sports critics call 'the intangibles.

The right hand is the only punch that you have to watch out for, and Wilder rarely sets it up with anything beyond a step-in jab. I'm pretty sure any world-level fighter with brain cells should be able to avoid being caught clean with it long enough to put together a sequence of punches. With Wilder's terrible defense and nonexistent footwork, it shouldn't take long to catch him.

It's what separates him from a guy like Ajagba who has much of the same physical capability, but just isn't made of the same stuff to accomplish what Wilder has.

If Wilder was struggling with tomato cans with over 30 bouts, what do you think would've happened to him if he faced a guy like Sanchez for his 16th match like Ajagba?