Reality check lads Lomo is no atg

[AKAcronym]

Don't recall anyone calling him an ATG but that's cool. Too much gets conflated around here.

[eco1]

We have so many couch potato Goats writing here that I don't know how they have time to be so great

[Marchegiano]

Well, people start saying ATG pretty early these days but I think for the most part they mean that prospectively. Like Loma will be an ATG?

It's getting harder and harder to compare anyways. ATG just gets dumber and dumber.

[Citizen Koba]

I'd leave that ish to the boxing historians of the future to figure out, but it's worth bearing in mind that we can only really compare fighters to their contemporaries. Also it's basically impossible to judge fighters objectively till well after their careers are over.

Ima just scrawl some ideas out here, but let's say for the sake of argument by 'ATG' we're talking about a top 50 fighter ever and let's make the wildly hopeful generalisation that on average the sport will throw up elite fighters (relative to their contemporaries) at roughly the same rate on average over time... So say we date the start of the pro sport and our list in 1867 (you reckon that's acceptable Marchegiano ?) with the penning and at least partial adoption of the Queensbury rules, let's say we're spanning a period of 150 years give or take.

So given the admittedly completely arbitrary generalisation it might be possible to expect another top 50 ATG to occur perhaps on average once every 3 years or so (or let's say we could expect maybe 10 in any given 30 year stretch or perhaps 6 or 7 since the turn of the Millenium).

So given that back of envelope bit of random nonsense the question you'd be asking would be if you has to choose the top 6 or 7 fighters of this Millenium 2000 - 2021 would Lomachenko be amongst 'em? Well he ain't finished his career yet, but I'd already be leaning doubtful - very doubtful in fact - although I guess it'd partly depend on who's running against him (if you include some dudes who debuted in the 90s like Floyd, Manny and BHops then a not a damn hope, if you only include dudes who debuted after 2K... well, TBH it still ain't looking particularly hopeful for Loma ).

Course, that's only talking of his pro career... as an ammy he is an ATG, no question, and if you combine the two sports I'd have to say he is too, but judged only as a pro I'd have to say not, at least not in terms of what he actually accomplished, although his unique style and skillset will dazzle fans for decades to come I expect.

Anyways... just one possible way of coming at the question, I was thinking as I was typing so it ain't the most polished of posts but I reckon you can get the idea.

EDIT: Just as a thought I wonder if anyone ever came up with a top 20 of fighters who debuted after 2K...

Reckon that'd be agood place to start.

[PBR Streetgang]

The Queensbury rules were introduced about 150+ years ago. I've been watching fights for less than a third of that time. Outside of a few legendary names, anyone's proclamation that a fighter is an ATG is just a WAG.

[Marchegiano]

I'd leave that ish to the boxing historians of the future to figure out, but it's worth bearing in mind that we can only really compare fighters to their contemporaries. Also it's basically impossible to judge fighters objectively till well after their careers are over.

Ima just scrawl some ideas out here, but let's say for the sake of argument by 'ATG' we're talking about a top 50 fighter ever and let's make the wildly hopeful generalisation that on average the sport will throw up elite fighters at roughly the same rate on average over time... So say we date the start of the pro sport and our list in 1867 (you reckon that's acceptable Marchegiano ?) with the penning and at least partial adoption of the Queensbury rules, let's say we're spanning a period of 150 years give or take.

So given the admittedly completely arbitrary generalisation it might be possible to expect another top 50 ATG to occur perhaps on average once every 3 years or so (or let's say we could expect maybe 10 in any given 30 year stretch or perhaps 6 or 7 since the turn of the Millenium).

So given that back of envelope bit of random nonsense the question you'd be asking would be if you has to choose the top 6 or 7 fighters of this Millenium 2000 - 2021 would Lomachenko be amongst 'em? Well he ain't finished his career yet, but I'd already be leaning doubtful - very doubtful in fact - although I guess it'd partly depend on who's running against him (if you include some dudes who debuted in the 90s like Floyd, Manny and BHops then a not a damn hope, if you only include dudes who debuted after 2K... well, TBH it still ain't looking particularly hopeful for Loma ).

Course, that's only talking of his pro career... as an ammy he is an ATG, no question, and if you combine the two sports I'd have to say he is too, but judged only as a pro I'd have to say not, at least not in terms of what he actually accomplished, although his unique style and skillset will dazzle fans for decades to come I expect.

Anyways... just one possible way of coming at the question, I was thinking as I was typing so it ain't the most polished of posts but I reckon you can get the idea.

EDIT: Just as a thought I wonder if anyone came up with a top 20 of fighters who debuted after 2K...

Reckon that'd be agood place to start.

Super fair beginning, and, great post bud.

Honestly, I'm not sure why folks don't just start with the 20s though. You never see boxing divided by pre and post body eras but the bodies had more to do with modern boxing looking the way it does than anything else. I definitely see John L through Willard as more akin to Figg's era than Mayweather era. Most others do too if you reword it. For example, no one gives any hoots Jack Johnson was the first sanctioned champion because no one cares about the IBU or NSC, probably because IBU/NSC failed to change boxing and boxing was still operating under the BK traditions.

Is Hart really a modern champion? He's a guy who beat up the previous champion's student.....that's so ****ing old man That's not modern at all but you can see loads in BK years.

Could Corbett retire and retain his title? Sure, because plenty of guys in BK did just that and QB hadn't yet become the sport we know.

Johnson was stripped and absolutely no one recognizes it because when Johnson was champion, champion's prerogative was still a thing.....from the BK era.

Dempsey, imo, is the first modern champion, well, at HW. the 20s is the first modern era. They box more like how we box because they had the rules to.

That said, I ****ing love the 2k idea. That's abouts when boxing started to become a truly global sport. Dempsey is very modern in a lot of ways except his resume. All white Americans. There's like 3 or 4 guys on his entire record that do not qualify as both white and American and I think 0 that are neither white nor American.

Peek my man Wilder going after y'all British.

Peek on Joshua having fought and will fight again former USSR nationals.

Peek on Fury, German, Czech, Albanian, dude obviously gives 0 ****s and fights the world.

All of them fight the world these days and our world champions are more global than the pre-2k fellas in a big way.

There's a lot to be said about undisputed. Undisputed in a four belt era, okay, sure, could be harder, could be easier given so many ranking boards to skip around in, but, fighting the world vs fighting a handful of nations is pretty inarguable. Never been harder to be a world champion, those guys never get their respect in history either.

As like one of to go-to history nerds here let me tell youse, 2k+ deserves some love. pre-2k got plenty, overrated and **** anyway.


Love Marciano, but, how many internationals he ever fought? Not his fault sure, but still, dudes today put that work on the whole planet.

[BustedKnuckles]

Why doesn't somebody just start a thread of best since 2K?

[Citizen Koba]

Why doesn't somebody just start a thread of best since 2K?

I'm thinking I might just do that, but as ever I'm overcommited with other ****, got the NSB Pick Em and the Sweepstakes I should be updating - which I actually sat down to do an hour ago and still ain't looked at -, I've commited to setting up a Chess league on here... and somewhere back IRL I should probably be trying to earn some money too...

And welcome to the forum man, always good to have new blood and new ideas on board. I'd suggest you start a new thread yourself but I get it could be a bit daunting if you only just signed up. Lemme see, I'll try and get round to it at some point cos I reckon it'd be an interesting topic.

[BustedKnuckles]

Thanks for the welcome.

I watched boxing whenever it was on basic cable as a teenager, starting in the late 80s through till about Y2K. Then I was busy with other stuff for a while and didn't follow closely. Didn't really get back into until a few years ago. So I wouldn't have the background to do a new millennium boxer list. But I'd sure be interested to follow along.