Will Wladimir Klitschko break Joe Lous' 25 title defenses record?

[TheGreatA]

If they will make a superheavyweight division 215+ or so, then the win over Chris Byrd will not count for that division.

Moreover if Byrd claims that he was under 200 (and we know what a one-sided bashing he received) then this shows you what a crap the 70ies were.

I don't understand your (il)logic. Chris Byrd being bashed by Wladimir shows how crap the 70s were? How?

Don't forget that sub-cruiser Byrd once went the distance with Wladimir (a failure in your view) and was TKO'd when he was older in the about the same amount of time that a 175 lb 17-3 Shaun George KO'd him.

[knn]

I don't understand your (il)logic. Chris Byrd being bashed by Wladimir shows how crap the 70s were? How?

Because the 70ies mainly consisted of guys who were lighter, shorter, less reachy than Byrd or as featherfisty as Byrd. Like Joe Frazier: Frazier is lighter than Byrd, Frazier is as featherfisty as Byrd (approx. 50% heavyweight KOratio), Frazier is smaller than Byrd, Frazier is less reachy than Byrd... AND BLIND ON 1 EYE.

And when half-blind Frazier fights another featherfist (Ali) then you get "The Golden Age of Heavies".

Don't forget that sub-cruiser Byrd once went the distance with Wladimir (a failure in your view)

Byrd never was a sub-cruiser against Wladimir. Chris Byrd's average fight weight throughout his career is 213 lbs.

That Byrd was not KOed against a proven KOer (Klitschko in their first encounter) just shows you how good Byrd is. Let's also not forget that he survived against Vitali, too. That Frazier was KOed so quickly against a proven KOer (Foreman) just shows you how bad Frazier was. That Frazier survived against featherfist Ali shows you not much. A lot of people survived against Ali.

[Mersey]

I think Wlad will reach 20 title defenses and retire.

[screwhead1]

short answer: yes

long answer: yes he will

like it or not...there is no one around that's going to beat the brothers...i thought about david haye...but he'll just get out pawed to a decision loss...chris arreola could knock wlad out...but would he ever even get that close to him?

unless he retires by choice...he won't be losing anytime soon...barring a fluke knockout...but that's with anybody...

[TheGreatA]

Because the 70ies mainly consisted of guys who were lighter, shorter, less reachy than Byrd or as featherfisty as Byrd. Like Joe Frazier: Frazier is lighter than Byrd, Frazier is as featherfisty as Byrd (approx. 50% heavyweight KOratio), Frazier is smaller than Byrd, Frazier is less reachy than Byrd... AND BLIND ON 1 EYE.

And when half-blind Frazier fights another featherfist (Ali) then you get "The Golden Age of Heavies".


Byrd never was a sub-cruiser against Wladimir. Chris Byrd's average fight weight throughout his career is 213 lbs.

That Byrd was not KOed against a proven KOer (Klitschko in their first encounter) just shows you how good Byrd is. Let's also not forget that he survived against Vitali, too. That Frazier was KOed so quickly against a proven KOer (Foreman) just shows you how bad Frazier was. That Frazier survived against featherfist Ali shows you not much. A lot of people survived against Ali.

In his own words:

Chris Byrd: "Not at all, because all I'm doing is running. I lose weight when I spar and I haven't sparred yet. I could back down to 168 is if I wanted to, but I think light heavyweight is a good fit for me. I got my body back and I got no fat on my body no more. I wasn't a guy who used any illegal substances so I didn't put on any muscle mass. I'm not a muscular guy, so mine was mostly fight. I ate my way to become a heavyweight, but I was never a true heavyweight. Eveytime I fought nobody knows what I really weighed when I got into the ring. Before I fought Wladimir Klitschko I came in at 197 and then I got the flu after that for three days and I was sick and my weight went even lower.

Chris Byrd: I told people for years that I was really an artificial heavyweight. I wasn't even a cruiserweight, I was just under 200 pounds when I was training to fight big heavyweights. I dont know anything about any illegal substances, I don't know nothing about that. I heard about it when I was champion, about most other guys being on some stuff, I thought it couldn't be. I didn't know anything about it, and I still don't. I wouldn't know where to get it, or anything. For people that said that I must be on something for dropping all this weight.

Look at the top heavyweights in the 1970's. Muhammad Ali, George Foreman, Joe Frazier, Ken Norton, Larry Holmes, Ron Lyle, Joe Bugner. All of them fought as heavyweights for their entire careers, except for Ali who was a light heavyweight amateur as a kid, and were over 6'2, 210 lbs aside from Frazier who was 5'11.

Look at the "median" top 10 heavyweight today. Aside from the Klitschko brothers and freakshow Valuev, most heavyweights are around 6'2 and 220-230 of which around 15 lbs is extra weight which they could easily drop.

Example:

Eddie Chambers 6'1, 224 lbs



Thought as a fringe contender who has no chance against any of the top heavies.

Eddie Chambers 6'1, 208 lbs



Goes onto beat 6'7, 258 lb Alexander Dimitrenko and is recognized as a top 3 heavyweight contender.

"No more 'Fat Eddie.' I'm 'Fast Eddie' again, and I'm going to stay that way," a smiling Chambers said yesterday afternoon at Philadelphia International Airport upon his return from Germany, where he achieved the most significant victory of his now very significant career. "Who knows? Maybe I can get an underwear commercial out of this."

Slimmed down to 208 1/4 pounds, his lowest weight since he came in at 207 for a 2003 bout with Allen Smith at the Blue Horizon, Chambers outquicked and outhustled Ukrainian giant Alexander "Sascha" Dimitrenko to win a 12-round majority decision on the Fourth of July in Hamburg, Germany.

Chambers is admittedly undersized in this area of heavyweights who look like NBA power forwards, which is why he scaled 223 pounds, one less than his career-high, for his previous bout, a 10-round, majority decision over former WBC heavyweight champion Samuel Peter, who came in at 265.

"I thought the extra weight would make me bigger and stronger, but it just made me slower," Chambers said. "After the Peter fight, I took off 10 pounds in a week and a half. It came off easy. I vowed that I'd never get up over 215 again, even between fights."

Murray said Chambers' rout of Dimitrenko is a blueprint of how he can take down Klitschko.

"I didn't like Eddie at 223 for the Peter fight," Murray said. "He needed to be quicker, more fluid. But against Dimitrenko he showed how to beat a big man.

"I know some people had written Eddie off as a Blue Horizon fighter, a club fighter. They said he was too short, too light, can't punch. A lot of people said some of the same things about Jack Johnson, Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano, Jack Dempsey. They weren't real big guys, but they could fight. This kid can fight."

"Keeping my weight down will help me stay effective," Chambers said. "I was sharper. I was faster. My movement was much better. I didn't have a jiggly midsection. It makes all the difference. I was able to get on my toes and stay on my toes. I had more energy throughout the fight.

"I like the way my new body feels. I like the way it looks, too."

Other top heavyweights:

Ruslan Chagaev 6'0, 225 lbs



Alexander Povetkin 6'2, 225 lbs



Compare to:

Ron Lyle

http://www.antekprizering.com/lylepires7456.jpeg

Muhammad Ali

http://www.vivid.ro/images/97/sport.jpg

George Foreman

http://media.eresmas.com/biblioteca/...an-frazier.jpg

Joe Bugner

http://www.2000group.uk.com/view-image.php?iid=644

Ken Norton

http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2008...norton_600.jpg

Frazier by the way knocked out many more top ranked heavyweights than Byrd did. As I proved previously, Byrd only has one TKO win over a ranked opponent, an injury-related stoppage win over Vitali Klitschko. He showed no punching power against world class opponents, not even scoring any knockdowns against them.

Byrd was a light welterweight at 20 years of age, moved up to the junior middleweight/middleweight weight classes and started his pro career at 168.

[bojangles1987]

What is is with knn calling 70's heavyweights cruisers? They were heavyweights, they were in the heavyweight division. It's not their fault a bunch of fat and/or steroided up fighters that should be super heavyweights have the definition changed. What if 40 years from now most heavyweights are 300 pounds, will knn be calling Wlad and Vitali cruisers?

[kayjay]

He's never held the WBC. Forget the 'major' titles though, for streaks to count like the old days the holder has to have defended the Ring title however many times it is for their division. That alphabet title **** is not fair to the timers and it's not legit.


This is true.

So long as you say the same about Hopkins, Lewis, etc. Hopkins defended the Ring belt only a few times, but no one objected to the idea that he had 20 defenses.

[knn]

What is is with knn calling 70's heavyweights cruisers? They were heavyweights, they were in the heavyweight division. It's not their fault a bunch of fat and/or steroided up fighters that should be super heavyweights have the definition changed. What if 40 years from now most heavyweights are 300 pounds, will knn be calling Wlad and Vitali cruisers?

Of course. The division definitions change all the time. Just like you cannot call the Titanic "The biggest ship of the world". Who cares that it was once called that?

[knn]

Look at the "median" top 10 heavyweight today. Aside from the Klitschko brothers and freakshow Valuev, most heavyweights are around 6'2 and 220-230 of which around 15 lbs is extra weight which they could easily drop.

So? This is the heavyweight division not the "women's drool division". That extra weight protects them from losing. Did you know that bodybuilders (who sweat off their fat so you can see all muscle definitions) are very prone to injuries of inner organs?

Thought as a fringe contender who has no chance against any of the top heavies.

I always thought Eddie is underrated.

Compare to:
Ron Lyle

http://www.antekprizering.com/lylepires7456.jpeg

Muhammad Ali

http://www.vivid.ro/images/97/sport.jpg

George Foreman

http://media.eresmas.com/biblioteca/...an-frazier.jpg

Joe Bugner

http://www.2000group.uk.com/view-image.php?iid=644

Ken Norton

http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2008...norton_600.jpg

They all look like cruisers (except Foreman). Thanks for taking the time to post these links.

Frazier by the way knocked out many more top ranked heavyweights than Byrd did.

But you see, being top ranked in the US of the 70ies can be less than being not top ranked nowadays. Boxing then was mainly a local event.

US population was 200 mio in 1970. This is 25% of Europe's population now. Or like current Germany+France+UK population now. In other words: Being a world champ in 1970 is as much worth as being a Germany champ who beat the UK champ and French champ. Who cares who is the highest ranked in amongst these countries?

Being a unified/undisputed world champion nowadays is approx. 20x more worth than at Ali's times:
http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/sh...98#post5528498

As I proved previously, Byrd only has one TKO win over a ranked opponent

A quick glance over Ring's annual top10 ratings shows that Byrd beat the following boxers who were ranked: McCline, Golota (draw), Vitali Klitschko, Tua, Holyfield (he was #4 in 2002 when Byrd beat him), Oquendo. I don't get what you are claiming. Moreover what is more important: Chris Byrd himself was top10 ranked in 6 years.

Byrd was a light welterweight at 20 years of age, moved up to the junior middleweight/middleweight weight classes and started his pro career at 168.

Yeah, so?

[TheGreatA]

So? This is the heavyweight division not the "women's drool division". That extra weight protects them from losing. Did you know that bodybuilders (who sweat off their fat so you can see all muscle definitions) are very prone to injuries of inner organs?

Boxers aren't supposed to be body builders. I have always thought that Chagaev is bloated at 225 lbs though and that he is actually worse off for it. He fought at 200 lbs as an amateur, was much more mobile and impressive. Today he is very slow, plodding and runs out of stamina in the later rounds.

As Chambers stated, putting on extra weight to a frame that doesn't carry it well doesn't make you stronger, it just makes you slower.

I always thought Eddie is underrated.

He was underrated because he didn't make the most of his abilities. Thanks to dropping all the useless excess weight, he is finally the best he can be even though to you he is a cruiser.

They all look like cruisers (except Foreman). Thanks for taking the time to post these links.

Ron Lyle 6'2, 220 lbs
Joe Bugner 6'4, 230 lbs
Muhammad Ali 6'3, 217 lbs
Ken Norton 6'3, 220 lbs

But you see, being top ranked in the US of the 70ies can be less than being not top ranked nowadays. Boxing then was mainly a local event.

US population was 200 mio in 1970. This is 25% of Europe's population now. Or like current Germany+France+UK population now. In other words: Being a world champ in 1970 is as much worth as being a Germany champ who beat the UK champ and French champ. Who cares who is the highest ranked in amongst these countries?

Boxing back then had more competitors. Today there are roughly 1000 professional boxers out there in the heavyweight division.

Even some of the lighter divisions today have more boxers in them than in the heavyweight division. Back in the 70's the heavyweight championship was the most prestigious title in boxing.

Today, the big money is made by welterweights like Floyd Mayweather, Manny Pacquiao, Ricky Hatton and Oscar De La Hoya whom everyone want to fight.

The Klitschko brothers offer a good payday to their opponents but nothing like what those four can make and the recognition you get from facing them.

A quick glance over Ring's annual top10 ratings shows that Byrd beat the following boxers who were ranked: McCline, Golota (draw), Vitali Klitschko, Tua, Holyfield (he was #4 in 2002 when Byrd beat him), Oquendo. I don't get what you are claiming. Moreover what is more important: Chris Byrd himself was top10 ranked in 6 years.

I said he never knocked out any ranked opponent aside from Vitali which was an injury-related TKO, thus he didn't show punching power against world class opponents. Frazier scored 10 KO's over ranked opponents.

Yeah, so?

Shows he was a small guy who ate his way to the heavyweight division. Weighed under 200 lbs when he fought Wladimir, thus the win should be discounted from Wladimir's resume (by your logic). It is by far the best win in Wladimir's career so far by the way, a win over a sub cruiser who used to fight at 140 lbs.

Remember when you said Ali fought a welterweight Archie Moore? Moore was a kid when he fought at welter, not even 20 years of age like Byrd was when he fought at light welter.