The definitive poll: Who's higher on the ATG list--Calzaghe or Hopkins?

[hookoutofhell]

Hopkins rates higher for me. Before lacy joes cv is pretty poor but after lacy it is decent. How decent really depends on how good kessler turns out to be. Rjj was obviously well on the slide. On the calzaghe hopkins fight i had joe winning that one even though it was close. Hopkins just didnt do enough for me and his low blow rolling around didnt do him any good imo

i was waiting for one of those pre-lacy comments - i guess the respective talents of eubank, brewer, mitchell, sheika, reid and woodhall should just be overlooked huh? all of these had held belts at SMW withing a year or two of fighting joe and all had gone on to challenge for further belts.

i do agree though that alot of joes legacy depends on what lacy and in particular kess accomplish from now until they retire

people say bernard has a skill set but his array of punches was obvious for all to see in that fight - he had the counter straight right, feints and a headbutt - no jabs, hooks, uppercuts, flurries or anything else worth noting

[bsrizpac]

i was waiting for one of those pre-lacy comments - i guess the respective talents of eubank, brewer, mitchell, sheika, reid and woodhall should just be overlooked huh? all of these had held belts at SMW withing a year or two of fighting joe and all had gone on to challenge for further belts.

i do agree though that alot of joes legacy depends on what lacy and in particular kess accomplish from now until they retire

people say bernard has a skill set but his array of punches was obvious for all to see in that fight - he had the counter straight right, feints and a headbutt - no jabs, hooks, uppercuts, flurries or anything else worth noting

SMW has always been an iffy division. Saying they got belts in that division doesn't mean much and you know it.

And if you think boxing skill is all about an "array" of different punches you are sadly mistaken. But then that's really what being a Joe fan is probably about: be awed by workrate and an "array" of creative punches.

[DiegoFuego]

dude is this a joke? Calzaghe is nothing

[bsrizpac]

dude is this a joke? Calzaghe is nothing

[hookoutofhell]

SMW has always been an iffy division. Saying they got belts in that division doesn't mean much and you know it.

And if you think boxing skill is all about an "array" of different punches you are sadly mistaken. But then that's really what being a Joe fan is probably about: be awed by workrate and an "array" of creative punches.

well MW has always been an iffy division - i mean seriously since the days of benn and eubank there has been steady stream of good fighters (toney, RJJ, hopkins, JT, kelly) but never an explosion of talent (i.e. like there is in the WW's/SMW's/LWW's right now). if you were to vote which division had the better quality of fighters the results would be pretty close.

oh and having an arsenal of punches is part of having a good skill set. b-hop does have skills, his defense is good but not in the same league as mayweather, toney or sweet pea as some make it out. what bernard does have skills wise is excellent movement (especially laterally), balance and foot positioning.

overall though calzaghe has the better skills - he has employed different tactics in different fights normally he goes for the gungo-ho approach, but he can use his speed and movement to pot shot (kessler), use a peek a boo style to frutstrate.

[bsrizpac]

well MW has always been an iffy division - i mean seriously since the days of benn and eubank there has been steady stream of good fighters (toney, RJJ, hopkins, JT, kelly) but never an explosion of talent (i.e. like there is in the WW's right now). if you were to vote which division had the better quality of fighters the results would be pretty close.

oh and having an arsenal of punches is part of having a good skill set. b-hop does have skills, his defense is good but not in the same league as mayweather, toney or sweet pea as some make it out. what bernard does have skills wise is excellent movement (especially laterally), balance and foot positioning.

overall though calzaghe has the better skills - he has employed different tactics in different fights normally he goes for the gungo-ho approach, but he can use his speed and movement to pot shot (kessler), use a peek a boo style to frutstrate.

Completely disagree. From my in ring experience and helping train and watching boxing for a very long time I just have to say I don't agree. Hopkins is one of the smartest in ring fighters of the modern era

In fact all you have to do is watch Hopkins teaching in In this corner the video.. He breaks down basic tactics and strategy and conveys tips very well.. Then watch Joe. He mumbles along doesn't really teach anything other than he "puts his jab out" and "switches stances".

[hookoutofhell]

Completely disagree. From my in ring experience and helping train and watching boxing for a very long time I just have to say I don't agree. Hopkins is one of the smartest in ring fighters of the modern era

In fact all you have to do is watch Hopkins teaching in In this corner the video.. He breaks down basic tactics and strategy and conveys tips very well.. Then watch Joe. He mumbles along doesn't really teach anything other than he "puts his jab out" and "switches stances".

i know iv seen both videos, iv seen hopkins pop up with his 'watch the right hand it comes from nowhere' comments to calzaghe while he was at ringside.

hopkins knowledge is undoubted he is student of the game, his training with eddie futch and roach shows and iv always though he would make for a great trainer/analyst. but i think hopkins is smart and shrewd (no surprise to see him in buisness with GBP), he knows his limitations.

also although his out of ring boxing IQ is undoubted his ability to adjust and re-take control of a fight is a sign of a fighter who can't think on his feet, he can't adapt. fighters like calzaghe (or for a more recent example JMM vs juan diaz) can up their game when they need to, find something extra, that is what seperates him from hopkins.

in fact name me a fight in which hopkins looked like he was losing but he made an adjustment and came back (against taylor, RJJ, cazaghe hes losing but doesn't use that boxing IQ), he tried to re-take control of the fight with zaghe by upsetting his rhythm (through fegning low blows) rather than mounting an offense himself.

calzaghes flurries with roundhouse punches, one of the ways to counter this is with the right, but a single right hand where the other guy is throwing three four or even 5 is never going to win you a fight. an authorative , straight puncher (like winky, kess ) would have been able to punctuate calzaghes attacks with his own counters. but bernard doesn't think of that.

look here bsrizpac im really busy today so im off but id be happy to continue this debate with you another time.

[xxjace]

calzaghe isnt even in the same league as hopkins he got a split decision because hopkins gased...In 10 yrs no one will even remember Calzaghe.In 10 yrs Hopkins will be bigger..It'll be like that comment hopkins said to calzaghe "Who's Kessler"except it will be "who's Calzaghe"...his biggest highlights are beating an old jones jr and hopkins...wow what an atg.

[bsrizpac]

i know iv seen both videos, iv seen hopkins pop up with his 'watch the right hand it comes from nowhere' comments to calzaghe while he was at ringside.

hopkins knowledge is undoubted he is student of the game, his training with eddie futch and roach shows and iv always though he would make for a great trainer/analyst. but i think hopkins is smart and shrewd (no surprise to see him in buisness with GBP), he knows his limitations.

also although his out of ring boxing IQ is undoubted his ability to adjust and re-take control of a fight is a sign of a fighter who can't think on his feet, he can't adapt. fighters like calzaghe (or for a more recent example JMM vs juan diaz) can up their game when they need to, find something extra, that is what seperates him from hopkins.

in fact name me a fight in which hopkins looked like he was losing but he made an adjustment and came back (against taylor, RJJ, cazaghe hes losing but doesn't use that boxing IQ), he tried to re-take control of the fight with zaghe by upsetting his rhythm (through fegning low blows) rather than mounting an offense himself.

calzaghes flurries with roundhouse punches, one of the ways to counter this is with the right, but a single right hand where the other guy is throwing three four or even 5 is never going to win you a fight. an authorative , straight puncher (like winky, kess ) would have been able to punctuate calzaghes attacks with his own counters. but bernard doesn't think of that.

look here bsrizpac im really busy today so im off but id be happy to continue this debate with you another time.

Uh no offense: but i could be that he's ****ING 43 years old. I mean could that possibly be it? NAH.

Okay Mercado 1.
Taylor 1. He didn't win the fight but nearly stopped him and had him out on his feet several times. Again he was very old and not active enough. Sense a theme here?

Bernard can dissect a fighter in many ways. I keep hearing about this Calzaghe tactics adjustment from his biggest fans but I have yet to see it. What Calzaghe has is heart in the ring, he does dig down when he is knocked down and come back. Credit to him for that. But it's not some huge tactical IQ thing.

Watch the fight and score it again. Bernard almost completely neutralized Calzaghe's offense. He was given tons of "points" for hitting: air, the shoulders, the elbows, the back of the neck, the back, back of the head, the gloves and the arms. It's hilarious the compubox goofing in that fight.

Only thing that fight showed me was that when OLD Bernard is pressured he doesn't have enough physically to come back and win the fight the way he knows how to. But guess what? I knew this a few years back when he lost to Taylor twice.

[Smash]

i was waiting for one of those pre-lacy comments - i guess the respective talents of eubank, brewer, mitchell, sheika, reid and woodhall should just be overlooked huh? all of these had held belts at SMW withing a year or two of fighting joe and all had gone on to challenge for further belts.

Im not overlooking these guys. I rated eubank as very good and tough to beat even if he was at the tail end of his career. The other guys you mention were good fighters but they were not elite fighters. Unfortunately for joe, lots of guys could have and have beaten them, which makes it difficult to rate joe at that time, simply because he was not doing something really special in beating them, just doing a good job no doubt.

But the SMW division at the time was not that deep and joe fought probably every contenter apart from ottke and if you believe warren they tried hard to make an ottke calzaghe fight but both wanted the fight at home, correct me if im wrong here? Even with a guarantted big purse ottke wouldnt bite.

I think joe has great skills but if your looking for wins against top quality in their prime fighters lets have a look. I mentioned kessler, if he ever gets moving again time will tell if he fits the bill, hopkins was a good win and even though he was 40 something he was still very dangerous (ask pavlik), but at that age he is past his best. I also realise that joe is no spring chicken and in his late 30's you would think he is also past his best. So that leaves lacy and after the beating joe gave him and his injuries he is now labelled as over rated, rjj was definitely over the hill and half way down but joe did a good job.

So at the end of the day joe did a very good job in what he did but another fight or two would have been good