Who would have thought...

[Fox McCloud]

that the two guys who fought to a draw in 2004 would be the best two fighters in the world today.

Pacquiao was a one-armed wreckless brawler, and Marquez was a pretty good counterpuncher with a terrible defense.

Pacquiao is now a terrific boxer puncher, who hasn't gotten hit much since he fought Marquez in the rematch, and that is always bound to happen, because he was facing the P4P #2, best offensive fighter in the game. Marquez is now the best counterpuncher in the game, who finds all the angles. His defense is still a bit leaky, but he is able to make terrific adjustments to account for it.

I just would have never expected these two guys to make the insane strides that they have made recently to become the best two fighters in the sport.

[Silencers]

Marquez a good counterpuncher with terrible defense? He always had good defense, in fact it was arguable that Marquez' defense back then is better than it is now because he had better reflexes and fresher legs back then, apart from the Pacquiao fight, you rarely saw him getting hit clean repeatedly.

Pacquiao has improved a lot from that point though.

[The Gambler1981]

It is kind of suprising. I doubted Pacman for the longest time because of that fight. He has earned all his accolades though.
In contrast it always impressed me that JMM was able to turn that fight around like that, so him being so highly thought of is not a suprise (although he is getting long in the tooth now, so you do have a point with him also).

[Fox McCloud]

Marquez a good counterpuncher with terrible defense? He always had good defense, in fact it was arguable that Marquez' defense back then is better than it is now because he had better reflexes and fresher legs back then, apart from the Pacquiao fight, you rarely saw him getting hit clean repeatedly.

Pacquiao has improved a lot from that point though.

He got drilled repeatedly with a pretty predictable left hand in that fight (after all, it was Pacquiao's only weapon pre-Morales trilogy). Maybe I'm wrong about Marquez, but he looks a hell of a lot better now than he did then...

[Silencers]

He got drilled repeatedly with a pretty predictable left hand in that fight (after all, it was Pacquiao's only weapon pre-Morales trilogy). Maybe I'm wrong about Marquez, but he looks a hell of a lot better now than he did then...

Marquez is probably a more well rounded fighter now, he is smarter than he was when he was younger but he never had horrible defense and as I said, it can be argued that Marquez' defense was better back then, he rarely got hit clean repeatedly at all apart from the Pacquiao fight, he's gotten hit much more in the past few years, part of that could be because of him adapting his style but part of it is also age IMO.

[Fox McCloud]

Marquez is probably a more well rounded fighter now, he is smarter than he was when he was younger but he never had horrible defense and as I said, it can be argued that Marquez' defense was better back then, he rarely got hit clean repeatedly at all apart from the Pacquiao fight, he's gotten hit much more in the past few years, part of that could be because of him adapting his style but part of it is also age IMO.

Maybe that's what it is... the ring intelligence.

I guess his defense isn't so much better, it's just that the shots he is getting hit by aren't as ******?

I don't know... you have me second guessing myself Silencers.

[-MAKAVELLI-]

good thread D



the rise of both of these stars couldnt have come at a more timely manner


with fighters like roy jones, dlh, barrera, morales, holyfield, tyson, trinidad retiring or becoming insignificant, these two have created their own self generated hype and have instilled a buzz in boxing



they're the type of fighters that you can present to a casual fan and pretty much guarantee a newfound interest




boxing die-hards knew that 04 bout was something special...as a fight fan, im happy that it wasnt just a one-shot deal

[Silencers]

Maybe that's what it is... the ring intelligence.

I guess his defense isn't so much better, it's just that the shots he is getting hit by aren't as ******?

I don't know... you have me second guessing myself Silencers.

Pacquiao was one dimensional but that left hand he had in their first fight and still have today was not ******, it looked easy to neutralize but it wasn't at all, Barrera was a great boxer/counterpuncher and he couldn't do anything to neutralize Pacquiao's left hand.

He actually gets hit with more shots that he shouldn't be getting hit with now than he was a few years ago.

[Fox McCloud]

Pacquiao was one dimensional but that left hand he had in their first fight and still have today was not ******, it looked easy to neutralize but it wasn't at all, Barrera was a great boxer/counterpuncher and he couldn't do anything to neutralize Pacquiao's left hand.

He actually gets hit with more shots that he shouldn't be getting hit with now than he was a few years ago.

Okay, so help me out... why is he so much better of a fighter now... his defense is worse.

He has always been a great counterpuncher, so...

What is it?

Is it that his counterpunching has gotten better to the point that it actually hurts the opposition's work rate? I doubt it, because I thought he looked great against Diaz.

Help me out, please, this is starting to bother me.

[Silencers]

Okay, so help me out... why is he so much better of a fighter now... his defense is worse.

He has always been a great counterpuncher, so...

What is it?

Is it that his counterpunching has gotten better to the point that it actually hurts the opposition's work rate? I doubt it, because I thought he looked great against Diaz.

Help me out, please, this is starting to bother me.

The main thing is that he's smarter now, obviously has more experience, he fights better on the inside now, adapts better and he's a better offensive fighter now, he leads better, one of the things I didn't like about him when he was younger was that he had trouble leading, he'd leave himself exposed a lot when he went on the offensive but he's gotten much better at leading now, although he still leaves himself exposed when he does lead, he's become much better at it though.

When he isn't fighting it out and is in counterpuncher mode, he's fought pretty much the same way his whole career and he could have arguably been a better counterpuncher back then because of his reflexes, his reflexes have slowed down a bit now but he's still very, very dangerous.

So overall, he's a better fighter now but the counterpunching and defense have always been great.