The Top 20 Greatest Super Middleweights of All-Time

[Hagler★]

Who's better then?

On accomplishments alone Joe is that far ahead of anyone else it's impossible to argue he's not.

cant argue with that

[Dave Rado]

boxingscene shouldnt allow this guy to make anymore lists

So you think BoxingScene.com should also scrap its P4P ratings? He complies those too.

Cliff's also a member of The Ring's ratings advisory panel. He's a widely and very highly respected boxing expert, whether you like the formula he used or not.

He's not claiming the list represents any indication of who would beat who in a mythical match-up, in fact he specifically stated that on that basis Jones would be #1, and Toney would be #2. He's just claiming it indicates who has been most successful at the weight overall; and in that specific context the formula is a fair one, IMO.

I can't believe the number of posters here who have completely misunderstood the purpose of the list - doesn't anyone read the articles on this site properly before posting about them?

[xfiles]

I think I **** my pants when I saw Kessler ranked #2 ahead of Jones and Toney.

Don't quit your day job Rold. Unless your making great money as the president of the Calslappy fan boy club.

[daju_99]

Another member of the calslappy fan club! Man, write a real article! Jeff Lacy better than Thomas Hearns? Kessler #2 of all time at SMW? Calslappy #1? I hope this dude stops smoking crack soon!!!

[Chase8400]

That's absurd. It's a flat system. Joe happened to finish first. If I'd added up and he finished fourth, that's where I'd have placed him. It's a statistical study.

As to Kessler, in real terms I tend to agree and it's why I noted he has space to fall. I considered not including active fighters and will determine how to use them as I go on.

The lists for Jr. Middle and Jr. Welter begin to be full of better names after this. I mean, Cruiser and Super Middle can have their greatest, but no one could argue many of the names as ATG material.

Finally, the most fun in reading responses so far has been the mini-argument between those who say Toney and Jones shouldn't be rated at all versus those who say they shopuld be rated higher. Fun stuff.

This just goes to show that this division or any other division cannot be ranked based solely only on numbers. If this were so, I'm sure without a doubt that Larry Holmes would be the #1 heavyweight of all time.

I respect what the study is and understand it but do you understand where I'm coming from. I'm sure you do since we both know Holmes is probably top 20 ATG, but definitely not the greatest ever as his record may suggest.

Thanks, Chase.

[Dave Rado]

Another member of the calslappy fan club! Man, write a real article! Jeff Lacy better than Thomas Hearns? Kessler #2 of all time at SMW? Calslappy #1? I hope this dude stops smoking crack soon!!!

Try reading the article before posting about it, moron. The article doesn't say anyone on the list was better than Hearns. It says that they had more successful records at Super Middleweight, judged by the number of other titlists they beat at that weight. Can't you read?

[crold1]

This just goes to show that this division or any other division cannot be ranked based solely only on numbers. If this were so, I'm sure without a doubt that Larry Holmes would be the #1 heavyweight of all time.

I respect what the study is and understand it but do you understand where I'm coming from. I'm sure you do since we both know Holmes is probably top 20 ATG, but definitely not the greatest ever as his record may suggest.

Thanks, Chase.

Actually, I've already started working on that and Louis and Ali finish 1-2; shocking I know.

Numbers are a way to compare eras which is why I like them; it's just different. There are no perfect lists. Most folks just makes lists of who beats who in their mind. That's fine too. If I can help them examine how they approach that, groovy. If I can help someone look and say who was Park, or Baek, or go back and watch some Liles, even better.

As the divisions get older, how does one compare a multi-title, less fights era against a single title, more fights era? I think it's an intriguing question and comparative analysis can help.

[Dave Rado]

This just goes to show that this division or any other division cannot be ranked based solely only on numbers. If this were so, I'm sure without a doubt that Larry Holmes would be the #1 heavyweight of all time.

I respect what the study is and understand it but do you understand where I'm coming from. I'm sure you do since we both know Holmes is probably top 20 ATG, but definitely not the greatest ever as his record may suggest.

Thanks, Chase.

Would be interesting for Cliff to do a Heavyweight list. It's not a slum dunk that Holmes would be rated as highly as you suggest, IMO, because he didn't fight many fellow champions. Ali fought far more, for instance, and even Marciano fought more.

Edit - just seen Cliff's post, above, and it seems I was right.

[crold1]

Would be interesting for Cliff to do a Heavyweight list. It's not a slum dunk that Holmes would be rated as highly as you suggest, IMO, because he didn't fight many fellow champions. Ali fought far more, for instance, and even Marciano fought more.

When I get to the classic eight, other factors will weigh as well, such as Hall of famers like Wills and how to rate them. It's fun. It's also longer which is why the Jr.'s go first.

[Chase8400]

Actually, I've already started working on that and Louis and Ali finish 1-2; shocking I know.

Numbers are a way to compare eras which is why I like them; it's just different. There are no perfect lists. Most folks just makes lists of who beats who in their mind. That's fine too. If I can help them examine how they approach that, groovy. If I can help someone look and say who was Park, or Baek, or go back and watch some Liles, even better.

As the divisions get older, how does one compare a multi-title, less fights era against a single title, more fights era? I think it's an intriguing question and comparative analysis can help.

Wow, Ali second. While I think he is top 3 overall I seriously wasn't aware he would be top 5 numerically based on this logic. Fascinating stuff, really. I knew Louis would be there and I rank him as my pick for ATG-HW based on everything across the board. Any way you spin it, I know it's not a head to head comparison and just numerical theorem, etc... and It's all going to be open to opinion until the end of time as you already know and stated.

Good reading and nice chatting. >Chase.