Who do you consider to be the top 10 greatest welterweights

[TheGreatA]

I don't think people really agree on anything except that Leonard and Robinson are the top two.

Other than that you see Armstrong, Griffith, Napoles and Gavilan frequently among the top 5.

I personally believe that Hearns and Duran shouldn't be ranked in the top 10 but I can see why people would rank them that highly. Head to head they obviously do well but they don't really have the resume at the weight to back up a top 10 rating.

[iluvboxing.com]

10. pablo ortiz
9. theodore mcmichael
8. sammie forte
7. jon m durant
6. wesley stanbryant
5. kendall holt
4. george ruxbin
3. lisa dimfield
2. landon wetnutt
1. nomar thundreburke (goat)

[iluvboxing.com]

honorable mention goes to zab judah

[S.G.]

I don't think people really agree on anything except that Leonard and Robinson are the top two.

Other than that you see Armstrong, Griffith, Napoles and Gavilan frequently among the top 5.

I personally believe that Hearns and Duran shouldn't be ranked in the top 10 but I can see why people would rank them that highly. Head to head they obviously do well but they don't really have the resume at the weight to back up a top 10 rating.

I can definitely see Hearns and I would probably put him in there myself

Duran falls short for me

What are your thoughts on Charlie Burley? It's a name I've heard brought up in these discussions but I don't really know anything about him to be honest. Just from scanning his boxrec quickly he seems to have been larger than welterweight for the better part of his career?

[Scott9945]

Oscar? I rate him very highly but a disputed win over old Whitaker, a win against Quartey, losses against Mosley and a loss against Trinidad (although I did score the Trinidad fight for him myself) doesn't seem to stand up against what some of these other guys have achieved there

No way Oscar belongs on an all time top ten welter list. Not even close.

[Burning Desire]

This list isn't in order.

Sugar Ray Robinson
Pernell Whitaker
Kid Gavilan
Henry Armstrong
Felix Trinidad
Emile Griffith
Jose Angel Napoles
Joe Walcott
Mickey Walker
Sugar Ray Leonard

[TheGreatA]

I can definitely see Hearns and I would probably put him in there myself

Duran, however, I'm not convinced on

I can see why Hearns would be ranked in there but his WW resume isn't that impressive:

KO2 Pipino Cuevas
KO1 Eddie Gazo (former WBA light middleweight champion)
TKO4 Angel Espada (former WBA welterweight champion)
KO3 Bruce Curry (had 2 close fights with Benitez, future WBC LWW champion)
TKO Clyde Gray (65-6 at the time, top contender)
TKO Saensak Muangsurin (former 2-time WBC LWW champion, won the world title in his 3rd fight)

Only Pipino Cuevas out of those was a really big win for Hearns, the others were little more than stepping stones for Tommy by the time he fought them. If he had beaten Leonard then yes, he should be ranked among the top 5 no doubt.

Duran had a great win over Leonard and a very good win over Palomino but aside from that he did nothing at welterweight.

What are your thoughts on Charlie Burley? It's a name I've heard brought up in these discussions but I don't really know anything about him to be honest. Just from scanning his boxrec quickly he seems to have been larger than welterweight for the better part of his career?

Burley jumped up and down from welterweight to middleweight and light heavyweight because he had trouble getting fights. I think he should be ranked as a middleweight because that's the weight division in which he beat Holman Williams, Archie Moore, Fritzie Zivic, Cocoa Kid and Bert Lytell.

It's a shame that he never got a shot at a title.

[S.G.]

This list isn't in order.

cop-out

Sugar Ray Robinson
Pernell Whitaker
Kid Gavilan
Henry Armstrong
Felix Trinidad
Emile Griffith
Jose Angel Napoles
Joe Walcott
Mickey Walker
Sugar Ray Leonard

quite a brave choice to include Sweet Pea imo... You rate him higher than the likes of Ted Kid Lewis, Barney Ross, Jimmy McLarnin, Carmen Basilio, Tommy Hearns, Fritzie Zivic, Jack Britton etc?

[S.G.]

I can see why Hearns would be ranked in there but his WW resume isn't that impressive:

KO2 Pipino Cuevas
KO1 Eddie Gazo (former WBA light middleweight champion)
TKO4 Angel Espada (former WBA welterweight champion)
KO3 Bruce Curry (had 2 close fights with Benitez, future WBC LWW champion)
TKO Clyde Gray (65-6 at the time, top contender)
TKO Saensak Muangsurin (former 2-time WBC LWW champion, won the world title in his 3rd fight)

Only Pipino Cuevas out of those was a really big win for Hearns, the others were little more than stepping stones for Tommy by the time he fought them. If he had beaten Leonard then yes, he should be ranked among the top 5 no doubt.

Duran had a great win over Leonard and a very good win over Palomino but aside from that he did nothing at welterweight.

it's a tough balancing act taking both pure skill and achievement into account

Burley jumped up and down from welterweight to middleweight and light heavyweight because he had trouble getting fights. I think he should be ranked as a middleweight because that's the weight division in which he beat Holman Williams, Archie Moore, Fritzie Zivic, Cocoa Kid and Bert Lytell.

It's a shame that he never got a shot at a title.

i see

[oldgringo]

sensible list

what's your reasoning behind placing Armstrong lower than top 3 and leaving Basilio/Ross out?

So here is a little clarification:

Let me preface by saying that I'm a relatively young man, not new to boxing (been watching since the early 90's), but I am obviously much more familiar with the modern era.

Welterweight is one of the most storied divisions in boxing history in addition to being extremely talent rich. The list of hall of fame, all-time great type fighters to come from that division is loooooooooong (I know I'm telling you stuff you already know). Making this list really got down to splitting hairs for me. I also confess to just throwing out the first 10 names to come to mind. I did use some thought, but with further consideration I could probably craft something a little more accurate.

I tried to take ability and accomplishment into account when making this. I really didn't place an even weight on one or the other throughout, hence Hearns being slotted at 6 when his accomplishments don't stack up. Maybe a bit misguided, but also a different take on things. I also tried to think about how they'd fare against each other in a potential match.

I know Armstrong was a fantastic fighter, one of the 3-5 greatest of all-time in fact (or widely regarded as such). I ranked him behind Griffith and Napoles for a couple of reasons. The first being I'm more familiar with their careers, the second being I feel they'd come out victorious against Armstrong in a Welterweight bout. All of these men were top fighters. I'm prepared to say that Armstrong is a greater fighter overall, regardless of weight, but I couldn't bring myself to rate him ahead of them as a Welterweight champion. Being that I have read and seen more of Napoles and Griffith, I think I'm more comfortable assessing their ability/careers. I favor the work of Napoles and Griffith at Welterweight.

Whew....

As far as Basilio and Ross go, one could certainly make cases for them as well. I usually think about BArney Ross as more of a Lightweight or Jr. Welter though. Hell what about Fritzie Zivic and Luis Rodriguez? Fritzie was a dirty ****er, but he fought just about everyone I could ever imagine.