Duran is not a top ten ATG

[Brandish]

Still not got your head around the concept of championship fights in Duran's and Floyd's era? There are four belts around now. There were only two in Duran's heyday. There are now A LOT MORE championship fights these days, which distorts stats when comparing eras. If it wasn't for the alphabet era, guys like Gatti, Baldomir and De La Hoya would likely never have held the titles Floyd took from them.

were the WBA and WBC around during duran's and floyd's time. did floyd and duran fight for the same titles in their era's. stay focused on your boy duran and what he couldn't do. duran tried to win the same wbc title that floyd has fought for and won his whole life. we are not discussing the wbo, IBO, IBF, or any other org. just the WBC the title duran held at 135, 147, and 160.

so it's ok for duran to win the WBC belt, but not gatti, baldomir or oscar..you sound ******.

Defending against whom? Floyd has made ONE defence of his last three titles, and that was against a man coming up in weight. Floyd hasn't faced the best in his own division since his 135lb days.

that one defence is more than duran could muster in 20 years. did duran defend his title at 147, oh yeah he quit trying to defend it aginst sugar ray. what about 154 nope got stripped and knocked the f.u.c.k out. what about 160 did he defend that belt, nope vacated and got beat up again by sugar ray. you have the nerve to talk about floyd at least defending his title.

duran didn't have a successful defense of any title after the age of 27.

LOL you do know how old Azumah Nelson was when Hernandez beat him, right? I'll take a prime Arguello over a 93-year-old Nelson thank you very much.

Earlier I asked you to tell me what you know about Marcel that isn't found on Boxrec and you didn't answer. The challenge still stands.

you mean a green 22 year old argeullo, how is that prime. what fighter is in their prime at 22

and azumah nelson was 39 when he faced genaro hernandez while not prime he only had 1 loss in 7 years, hardly a dinosaur and hardly shot.

Buchanan won his title from a prime Hall of Famer, and lost it to a prime Hall of Famer. Never heard of Ismael Laguna and Carlos Ortiz? I didn't think so. Which prime Hall of Famers did Castillo and Corrales win their titles from?

DeJesus has a victory on his resume that Castillo and Corrales could never replicate. These days Buchanan and DeJesus could be alphabet boys, racking up dozens of defences of paper titles, while the other champions in their division did the same, which apparently would impress you more.

winning a title is one thing defending it is a true measure of greatness. the hof has many guys who don't belong in there, take buchanan for instance the guy was a title holder for 1 year and gets in the hall on a record of 5 championship fights. how can anyone be impressed with that. you go 3-2 in championship fights and defend your title successfully 3 times and you get in. gatti has more successful title defenses then ken buchanan

so using the criteria of the HOF to prop up buchanan is pitiful. but I will humor you how many HOFer did duran beat at 135.

we already know floyd beat three at 130, and 135 how many did duran defeat

Against a 140lber who had already looked ropey in his previous outing at 147. Whose only noteworthy win was against an inactive Tszyu? Well done Floyd, now start defending against some legit 147lbers.

floyd was a 130lberwhat's your point or did you forget floyd started at 130. the question was why didn't duran ever sucessfully defend any title outside of 135. was he good enough to defend the titles he won, I don't think he was. he got a close victory against ray and the rematch proved who the better fighter was. he beat a green davey moore but when he stepped up to take tommy hearns title he got koed the F.u.c.k out.

he then waits 6 years for marvin hagler to retire and for tommy hearns to lose to challenge barkley in a close fight he barely won and many thought he got a gift.

just admit duran wasn't good enough to defend any title outside of 135 but floyd was and he did it against a p4p undefeated champion can duran say the same?

Both fought at 130, only Duran didn't fight for a title there. Both fought at 135. Duran skipped 140 to go direct to 147. Both fought at 154. Floyd never made it to 160. They are the same size. If you wanna trash Duran for losing to prime Hall of Famers at 147 through 160, you have to trash Floyd for not even daring to go that high.

if they were the same size how is it that duran had over 30 fights at 160 and above. from the age of 32 until 50 he fought at 160 and above. floyd at 32 barely weighs 147. if they were the same size duran would have been able to compete at the championship level at 130. how many titles did he win at 130.
you do realize 80% of floyd's fights were at a 130 and 135. while 53% of duran's fights were at 135 and below.

and greatness, true greatness is about winning not losing evertime you are confronted with a challenge. floyd challenged oscar at 154, and won big difference is that duran would challenge and get his ass kicked in the process.


duran wasted his prime years eating and rinking himself out of shape. that;s why he went into hiding after the hearns ko. for 6 years duran was missing in action, as soon as he heard barkely got lucky with tommy he he came running. why didn't duran challenge tommy hearns to a rematch at 160.

Again, he was in his mid-30s at this point. You give Floyd a pass for not meeting the best throughout his career, yet you want Duran to be cleaning out the middleweights in old age. What were you saying about hypocrites?

stop using age as an excuse, bhop defended the middleweight title 20 times while in his 30's, and you say floyd didn't fight the best. please list five fighters in floyd's era that accomplsihed more then these fighters:

130 Genaro Hernadez undefeated for 14 years at 130 13-2 in championship fights..ring/lineal WBC champion

130 Diego Corrales undefeated for 5 years at 130 7-2 in championship fights 135 WBC ring/lineal champion

Jose Luis Castillo 2 time WBC 135 champion 6-3-1 in championship fights

140 Arturo Gatti 2 time world champion at 130 and 140 7-2 in championship fights

147 Zab Judah 2 time world champion at 140 and 147 16-6 in championship fiights.

147 Ricky Hatton 2 time world champion at 140 and 147 4-1 in championship fights

154 oscar de la hoya 6 time world champion 130-160 24-5 in championship figthts

Floyd the only fighter in history to get to p4p #1 by constantly saying he is rather than by proving it in the ring.

how many weight classes was duran recognized as the best fighter in the world. are you jealous of how floyd dominated the fighters of his era unlike duran who is 1-5 agains the best of his generation. was duran recognized as the best fighter at 160 when he beat barkley.lol

Floyd did not dominate a single division. You do not dominate a division by avoiding the other titlists. You are clueless.

so based on your logic of needing other titlists to dominate duran has never dominated a single divison.

[Brandish]

Recognised by whom? You and the other fanboys? If you don't beat the other champs in your division then you haven't dominated it. End of story

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by boxing writers, boxing historians, even this website, they all agreed that floyd was the best from 130-154 henc the title pound for pound. and if he hadn't retired he would still be recognized as the best fighter on the planet. if you got a problem with ring designating floyd their champion in three weightclasses (130, 135, 147) take it up with them.

and it's amazing how duran is the only guy you have in the top ten that never dominanted a weightclass based on your criteria

It was Baldomir, more easy pickings for Floyd. That and Floyd turned down Judah when he was undisputed and calling Floyd out.

didn't floyd clown both of these fighters and I am quite sure baldomir was a tougher fight then 12-0 davey moore

So holding the belt of privately owned magazine makes Floyd "dominant", eh? Ring magazine also ranked Duran the fifth greatest fighter of the last 80 years, but I bet you'd never accept that.

that list is old and outdated. the editors who put that list together are long gone. new blood is coming down the pike that will objectively analyze fighters based on their actual ring accomplishments not their popularity.

Duran started at 120 and you're accusing him of ducking Michael Nunn at 160 at age 38. You're the one who's touting Floyd as a five division champion, yet one of the other titlists in his division wanted to fight and Floyd ignored the challenge. So yes, Floyd ducked Winky. You can't have it both ways.

floyd is a five division champion. and in 2007 winky was not fighting at 154. winky's last fight at 154 was in 2004 against shane mosley. in 2004 floyd was fighting at 140 damn ikka you getting desperate.

the fact remains duran ducked all the great middleweights of the late 1980's. michael nunn was the IBF champ at the time and duran who was a titlist refused to fight him or unify at 160. yet you want floyd to jump 2 weight divisdons to fight winky wright at 154 when he was at 140.. that is really funny.

so you basically set the bar real low for duran and set the bar real high for floyd

Yet turning down career high paydays against Margarito, ignoring a dozen or so titlists in his own divisions, turning down the undisputed welter champ and calling out Winky and then running and hiding when he accepts the challenge puts Floyd all-time top ten? These are the sort of fights which would put Floyd higher in the all-time lists, and he wanted no part of them.

floyd beat judah and when did duran ever call out anyone in his career, oh yeah he called out sugar ray and got no mas'ed..

margarito and winky wright are not all-time by any stretch of the imagination so floyd being undefeated in 5 weight classes has to fight fighters on his level margartio needs to start winning and then they might get that call.

funny how you think margartio and winky are suppossed to measure floyd's greatness but hearns, leonard, benitez, and hagler don't have any effect on duran's

and the question remains why didn't duran rematch any of his most crushing defeats. the hagler, benitez, hearns and leonard losses went unavenged, and unchallenged. castillo gave floyd a good first fight and immediately challegened him again. duran unfortunately left his heart in the ring at the no mas debacle.

Any thoughts on Sven Ottke being statistically superior to Floyd by your own formula for greatness?

did sven ottke win 5 title in 5 weight classes going undefeated by the age of 30 I didn't think so.

[wpink1]

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by boxing writers, boxing historians, even this website, they all agreed that floyd was the best from 130-154 henc the title pound for pound. and if he hadn't retired he would still be recognized as the best fighter on the planet. if you got a problem with ring designating floyd their champion in three weightclasses (130, 135, 147) take it up with them.

and it's amazing how duran is the only guy you have in the top ten that never dominanted a weightclass based on your criteria




didn't floyd clown both of these fighters and I am quite sure baldomir was a tougher fight then 12-0 davey moore




that list is old and outdated. the editors who put that list together are long gone. new blood is coming down the pike that will objectively analyze fighters based on their actual ring accomplishments not their popularity.




floyd is a five division champion. and in 2007 winky was not fighting at 154. winky's last fight at 154 was in 2004 against shane mosley. in 2004 floyd was fighting at 140 damn ikka you getting desperate.

the fact remains duran ducked all the great middleweights of the late 1980's. michael nunn was the IBF champ at the time and duran who was a titlist refused to fight him or unify at 160. yet you want floyd to jump 2 weight divisdons to fight winky wright at 154 when he was at 140.. that is really funny.

so you basically set the bar real low for duran and set the bar real high for floyd



floyd beat judah and when did duran ever call out anyone in his career, oh yeah he called out sugar ray and got no mas'ed..

margarito and winky wright are not all-time by any stretch of the imagination so floyd being undefeated in 5 weight classes has to fight fighters on his level margartio needs to start winning and then they might get that call.

funny how you think margartio and winky are suppossed to measure floyd's greatness but hearns, leonard, benitez, and hagler don't have any effect on duran's

and the question remains why didn't duran rematch any of his most crushing defeats. the hagler, benitez, hearns and leonard losses went unavenged, and unchallenged. castillo gave floyd a good first fight and immediately challegened him again. duran unfortunately left his heart in the ring at the no mas debacle.



did sven ottke win 5 title in 5 weight classes going undefeated by the age of 30 I didn't think so.

Brandish while I dont agree with your logic about mayweather being pound per pound better than Duran, you are killing them, man. You are hitting them with facts that are objective, for the most part, and damm you make me really look at the mayweather Duran pound per pound match up.

Now I will chim in on this. I would like you to chim in on my post coming up comparing duran to Jones.

I think that Duran and Mayweather is close. Here is why. While i agree with many of your points on here. Mayweather has avoided the best welters and the best 154 fighter at the time. Should he be required to campaign at these wieghts, Naw, that is a bit much. However in order to be ranked top 5-10 all time he has to do something extra ordinary. Keep in mind there are many fighters who have a 36-0 to 39-0 record and then face a great fighter and lose. At welter Judah and Baldomir where the legitimate champpions at the time. Your correct. They (whom your killing on here) wont admit that at the time Mayweather had singed to fight Judah who at the time was very very very highly regarded, until he met Baldomir. Remember Mayweather had pretty much already signed to fight Judah. So he went on and beat judah. Mayweather got a lot of harrassment over not fighting the deserved champion, who beat judah. So he then beat Baldomir.

He then made a smart career move. He fought DLH at 154. This is huge, as moving up to 154, to bet DlH is a tremendous. However lets examine the facts that DLH had lost like 50% of his last 10 fights. He also won a horribly weak SD vs a 34 year old DLH. OKay he won lets move on...He called out Mosely and Mosley punked out, saying he needed his tooth fixed. He had a signed contract with winky, but mayweathe backed out, citing he needed 60%.

Now this is where Mayweather dropped the ball, and you should really accept this. I am in your corner, but reality is reality. There are no other top fighters all time that have avoided the best fighters when they are only 30-31. Cotto, Margo, Williams, Berto, Clottery.....all await him at 147, he had kostyzu at 140, and now there is a Pac-man.

I tend to think that Mayweather is sittin back and will make a comeback to address this, and will do what that great analogy said do in the Movie "Colors". "Why run down the hills and chase all the cows, when you can wait and **** the best of them and get the credit for ****in them all", or something like that"

If Mayweather retires now with out finishing his work, he will have left a good portion of his possible legcy and greatness on the table, which was his for the taking. All he has to do is come out beat Pacman at 140, then margo at 147, retire and this solidifies him IMO as top 10 all time. Howevever he still has some work to do IMO. I am waiting anyday for his retirment that he will be fighting the winner of Hatton-pacman.

Most of what your saying is spot on. However, while duran does not get credit for loses he took, You have to look at certain things when measuring Mayweather and then compare. Like a couple of years ago, Mosley was undefeated, had moved up to 147 and beat a prime dlH in a tremendous fight. He was being hailed as the next Sugar, the best pound per pound in the sport. Then he did something that Mayweather has not done, he faced to big peak fighters. I repeat, two BIG peak fightrs, in Forrest and Winky. This risk didnt pay off, and thus his ratings legacy etc dropped off considerably. Well, you have the same thing with Mayweather. He could risk it vs a couple of big welters, but he has not. Please dont consider Baldomir as a big great opponent. He got destroyed many times before Mayweather and then also by Forrest. Do i think mayweather could beat Margo, absolutely and Pacman too. However, he has to get in the ring and do it.

Again your right about a lot of what your saying about Mayweathr but he has avoided the best Welters. Hatton was never a good welter as evidence in his prior fight vs Callazo. Duran, Leonrd, Mosley, Jones all risked it. The world is waiting for Mayweather to finally truly risk it. For his all time legacy he needs to. He does not have the 4 legends out there for him to beat that he could point to, and he does not have the long title reign to point to. He has a undefeated record, and some great wins, but in order to eclipse Duran who has a SRL on his record, he needs to beat the best of his era.

I know your squirming wanting to fireback why does Mayweather have to beat the best in his era, when Duran didnt. Well the fact is Duran does have a win vs SRL< that is somehting Mayweather will not be able to mimick. Duran does have that 65-1 record at lightweight. Yes You and I agree he beat a lot of bums, and some decent to good at best champions. Not that great of a resume for duran at 135. However, duran factually can point to the fact he dominated a division beating everyone at that division for almost the entire decade of the 70's. That coupled with his win over SRL, and wins vs Moore, and Barkly, two average fighters, but champs at a much heavier weight, and Duran was older...These fights do add to his legacy.

It is all up to Mayweather. The chips are in his hands....

[wpink1]

Oh to address Duran vs Jones...this is easy.. Please be honest an objective.

First off, I have always said Duran is a top top fighter, just not above leoanrd or Jones. When have I said duran is not a top fighter. You have me and someone else confused. I have even stated he is above Mayweather, for right now.

Secondly, I lay out reasons for Leoanrd and Jones to be above him. NOT I repeat, NOT to say Duran is not a all time top fighter.


Our main lines of division appear to be how much we truly value dominating a division that does not have any one, I repeat anyone, that is regarded by BERT Sugar, ESPN, or THE RING magazine, or any other list that i have ever seen, as being a top 1-100 fighter pound per pound. That is a fact. I have provided the links to these list.

I think that dominating this type of division means simply duran was the best of that division. This qualifies him to be considered one of the best lightweights of all time. However, I ask you how does Duran dominance at lightweight when it had fighters that simply are not regarded as being on the same level as a hearns, Dlh, hagler, toney, Hopkins, etc. how does this force you to rank him higher than a person that has a resume that included Duran himself, Benetiz, and hearns. All 3 are ranked in 2 of the 3 respected pound per pound list, and everyone else I have seen.

So we then in order to solidy duran greatness you have to include his win over SRL. This is truly a great win. Regardless of the style that Ray fougth, Duran deserves the credit for beating ray at welter. This win along with Duran's dominance at Lightweight significantly moves Duran up in any all time ranking. However does this mean he is top 10?

Then we get to the part where all the excuses come in. Starting with 2nd Duran-Leonard fight. Duran was not past his peak. He even said himself in his book Hands of stone, yes he partied between the fights, but he did this all the time. Nothing new. Duran simply met a mentally physicall stronger Leonard, and one that was not going to fight Durans style. NO cramps, no diarrhea, nothing. Duran exact words when he retired was " I am not fighting this clown" in his native language.

Then we have duran only age of 29 through 33 losing repeatedly to great fighters. Duran fans want to say this era should not be considered as he was a lightweight, or he was older or he had a bunch of fights..BS... Everyone else EVERYONE ELSE is judged by how they fare as they move up, arent they? Duran didnt have a lot of wars, that destroyed his body, if anything it was his focus and bad habits. However, that is part of being a champion. Are we suppossed to lower our standards for Duran because he didnt take care of his body. Are you all giving Roy a break? Duran simply got beat 5 out of 6 times he met fighters that are ranked top pound per pound fighters. Save the whinny he ws smaller. Leonard was smaller than hagler. Mayweathe smaller than Baldomir. Jones smaller than ruiz, and many of the Light heavy's he faced. Save it.!

Finally we have Jones who had a career that simply is better than Duran and he is better than duran.

He had more title defenses
he had more wins vs all time top fighters 2-1
He did not lose except for dq until he was 35. Duran first lost 21 years old.
He did not lose except or dq until his 50th fight. Duran lost his 32nd fight.
He did not lose except for dq for 15 years, Duran lost in his 4th year.

Roy beat 23 past present and many who went on to be future champions. Duran could not have beaten this many as he only had 22 total championship fight, and many of these he lost.

Roy beat 18 world champions. Duran beat no more than 7.

Roy defended his middlewieight, supre middleweight, and Light heavyweight titles all at least 5 times. Duran defended his lightwight title a lot, but never successfully defended his title above 135. 0 successful defenses.

Duran effective career started at 135. He did have 5 fights at 118 none meaningful, he did have 10 at featherweight, none meaningful. Roy fought at middleweight and won a title. then he moved up from that weight 40 pounds to win a heavyweight title vs a fighter who outweighed him by 33 pounds, he moved up with out a tune up at that weight. Duran won the title at 160 vs Barkley, who outweighed him by 3 1/2 pounds, also unlike Roy, Duran had been at middleweight or above for 8 years, dating back to his fight with nino Gonzalez in 81. Duran failed in his three previous attempts at a jr middle and middle weight championshp.

Roy dropped off at 35 noticeably, after he added 18 pounds of muscle to his frame to fight at heavyweight then had to shed this, which most know is common knowledge to possibly have permanent impacts to fast twitch muscle. Roy never was the same after the Ruiz fight. Never. Yes Duran has some good showing at a much older age,, and deserved kudos for this, but Roy clearly had a better career than Duran did. Only thing Duran has on roy is the name SRL, and he was 1-2 vs him. Both moved up, and Roy didnt suffer loses like Duran did. Duran fans want to say Duran had fights with better fighters. Well you still cant give duran credit for losses. And also Duran had loses to Dejesus, adn Laing. There are no loses like that on Roy's resume until he was shot. If you want to bring up Tarver, then I can easily bring u Lawlor, sims, Joppy etc... So I think it is generally fair to rate fighters up until about 34.[/

[TheGreatA]

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that list is old and outdated. the editors who put that list together are long gone. new blood is coming down the pike that will objectively analyze fighters based on their actual ring accomplishments not their popularity.

The list was published in 2002.

[Brandish]

the way I see it wink if duran had did what floyd did he would be called the greatest fighter of all-time they would be on here telling the world about how duran is greater than sugar ray robinson, and retired undefeated with 5 titles in 5 weight classes.

people recognize how great floyd is that is why the bar is set so high. nobody demands a jr lightweight clean out welterweight excpet floyd. the funny thing is he accomplished in ten years what takes most fighters 15-20. as far as the facts go I have to rank duran top 25 based on his weak resume against other top opposition. floyd hasn't been defeated and he has met the best of his generation. and I don't consider margarito and cotto the best welterweights they are good fighters but i need to see more before I think they can defeat a fighter of floyd's caliber.

Now I will chim in on this. I would like you to chim in on my post coming up comparing duran to Jones.

my stats on roy definitely place him top 5-10. roy's dominance was sugar ray robinson like.

I

think that Duran and Mayweather is close. Here is why. While i agree with many of your points on here. Mayweather has avoided the best welters and the best 154 fighter at the time. Should he be required to campaign at these wieghts, Naw, that is a bit much. However in order to be ranked top 5-10 all time he has to do something extra ordinary. Keep in mind there are many fighters who have a 36-0 to 39-0 record and then face a great fighter and lose. At welter Judah and Baldomir where the legitimate champpions at the time. Your correct. They (whom your killing on here) wont admit that at the time Mayweather had singed to fight Judah who at the time was very very very highly regarded, until he met Baldomir.

gotta disagree reason being floyd is in his 4th weight class, and second there are no legendary fighters at 147. no prime fighter at 147 would add to floyd's legacy due to the fact they haven't done much. take margarito for example the guy is one-dimensional and is not considered top 100 at his weight all time, same goes for cotto. they have no real legacy at 147 yeat. floyd beating either one is not as important as winning the lineal title from baldomir.

now I have floyd top ten, but he could have moved into the top 5 with a few more defenses at 147. I love watching him fight but I gotta respect the fact that he is not prime anymore, he did what he had to do in his prime and if he never stepped foot in the ring again he has already rewritten the history books.

duran on the other hand did not make history, he had a solid career but there was nothing about his career that was truly spectacular. if he hadnt gone 1-5 against the best of his generation he would be ranked higher by me.

He then made a smart career move. He fought DLH at 154. This is huge, as moving up to 154, to bet DlH is a tremendous. However lets examine the facts that DLH had lost like 50% of his last 10 fights. He also won a horribly weak SD vs a 34 year old DLH. OKay he won lets move on...He called out Mosely and Mosley punked out, saying he needed his tooth fixed. He had a signed contract with winky, but mayweathe backed out, citing he needed 60%.

yeah that may be true but de la hoya stacked the deck in his favor for that fight. floyd jumoed right to 154 no tuneup which is very significant as only a few fighters in history have done this (henry armstrong) many fail when they jump a weightclass w/out a tuneup.

the fact that de la hoya was coming off a win and was a champion made the win very significant it put floyd in the leonard. amd hearns cateorgy, of winning 5 titles in 5 weight classes and he did more impressively then oscar, ray or tommy.

Now this is where Mayweather dropped the ball, and you should really accept this. I am in your corner, but reality is reality. There are no other top fighters all time that have avoided the best fighters when they are only 30-31. Cotto, Margo, Williams, Berto, Clottery.....all await him at 147, he had kostyzu at 140, and now there is a Pac-man.

he didn't have kosta at 140. kosta was constanstly injured from 2002-2004. by the time floyd got to 140 kosta had loss to ricky hatton. I am not sure why people keep bringing up kosta like he was available to fight. the fact is he wasn't. once again duran did not meet top challengers at 160, leonard did not stick around and clean out 106 or 175, and neithr did tommy.

why is the bar set so high for a guy ho fought 80% of his fights below 135. Floyd's hands i feel if they were better would have kept fighting but it wasn't meant to be. wanting floyd to clean out 147 like he did 130 is very unrealistic since no other atg is held to such a standard. ray didn't cleanm out 175, and roy jones didn't clean out heavyweight their fourth weight class. I ask again why the double standard.

If Mayweather retires now with out finishing his work, he will have left a good portion of his possible legcy and greatness on the table, which was his for the taking. All he has to do is come out beat Pacman at 140, then margo at 147, retire and this solidifies him IMO as top 10 all time. Howevever he still has some work to do IMO. I am waiting anyday for his retirment that he will be fighting the winner of Hatton-pacman.

winning the ring/lineal title at 147 in your 3rd fight at the weight is very significant. duran didn't do this, so floyd gets mad props for mocing up and cha;llenging history rather then staying at 140 for three years and beating mandatories. after the age of 29 a fighter will decline. so asking a floyd who is 31 and physically declining to clean out his 4th weight class is unrealistic.

Most of what your saying is spot on. However, while duran does not get credit for loses he took, You have to look at certain things when measuring Mayweather and then compare. Like a couple of years ago, Mosley was undefeated, had moved up to 147 and beat a prime dlH in a tremendous fight. He was being hailed as the next Sugar, the best pound per pound in the sport. Then he did something that Mayweather has not done, he faced to big peak fighters. I repeat, two BIG peak fightrs, in Forrest and Winky. This risk didnt pay off, and thus his ratings legacy etc dropped off considerably. Well, you have the same thing with Mayweather. He could risk it vs a couple of big welters, but he has not..

I don't agree with the big fighter scenario adding points to your legacy especially when said big fighter doesn't have a legacy of his own. you could have made a case for cotto in about a year if he had kept winning, but he lost ruining a great legacy fight with floyd in 2009. margarito has no legacy worth taking at 147. you have to remember vernon forrest was undefeated and 32-0 when he stepped up to face shane. that was a very important legacy fight for both, floyd doesn't have that type of fighter to face right now. would be cool if there was a trinidiad, sweet pea, or hearns at 147.

ruiz was a big guy you give roy credit for defeating why are you requiring floyd to do more than baldomir at 147, why is cleaning out 147 his fourth weight class a prerequisite for greatness.

Again your right about a lot of what your saying about Mayweathr but he has avoided the best Welters. Hatton was never a good welter as evidence in his prior fight vs Callazo. Duran, Leonrd, Mosley, Jones all risked it. The world is waiting for Mayweather to finally truly risk it. For his all time legacy he needs to. He does not have the 4 legends out there for him to beat that he could point to, and he does not have the long title reign to point to. He has a undefeated record, and some great wins, but in order to eclipse Duran who has a SRL on his record, he needs to beat the best of his era.

you don't avoid fighters in your fourth weight class it is not objective to say that. you have to put that into context.

I know your squirming wanting to fireback why does Mayweather have to beat the best in his era, when Duran didnt. Well the fact is Duran does have a win vs SRL< that is somehting Mayweather will not be able to mimick.

floyd doesn't need a win over sugar ray leonard, just like roy jones doesn't need a win over sugar ray leonard....they have their own era''s to conquer. why would I judge floyd's career based on one win by duran which was not even substantiated in the rematch.

floyd has never quit in the ring and that's one thing duran groupies can ever say.

Duran does have that 65-1 record at lightweight. Yes You and I agree he beat a lot of bums, and some decent to good at best champions. Not that great of a resume for duran at 135. However, duran factually can point to the fact he dominated a division beating everyone at that division for almost the entire decade of the 70's.

his first tile was in 1972 he left the weight in 1978 he wa champ for 6 years floyd has been a champion for 10 years running throughout all the weight classes he campaigned. duran can't say that.

That coupled with his win over SRL, and wins vs Moore, and Barkly, two average fighters, but champs at a much heavier weight, and Duran was older...These fights do add to his legacy.

well the hand has been shown already most people will not objectively measure floyd's greatness due to the fact he is undefeated. if you can name two fightera that started at 130 or lighter and dominated and became p4p over ten years I'll admit floyd isn't a special fighter.

you can't ignore histroy.

[Brandish]

The list was published in 2002.

it's 2009 now don't you think it needs updating.

[wpink1]

Thanks for your feedback previously about Roy. I know you llike Mayweather, just as I like Leonard, but we have to be objective and logical when we debate our favorites.

You do a damm good job of addressing mayweathers greatness, but you do go a bit overboard.

Mayweathers win over dlh, is no where near what Leoanrd's win over hagler was.

Hagler was younger
Hager was better
Hagler had not lost in 10 years
Mayweather was active,, vs Ray not being active
both jumped weight, Ray 13 pounds, mayweather by your logic jumped 7. I use your logic when you point at how Duran should not be credited for a jump directly to welter, since he was there. So using that Mayweather was already at welter, so I am counting his jump from 147.
Dlh was not the undisputed Champ, nor the best at 154.
Dlh had moved up from 130 too, vs Hagler being at solid middle.

Both wins are great accomplishments, but we have to put them in proper perspective. Leonard win over Hagler ranks as one of the greatest upsets ever, vs Mayweathers win of DlH looked upon as a black eye in boxing due to the dissappointment of the fight.


Your correct about if Roberto Duran had what Mayweather had, as far as skills, and being undefeated he would be considered 2nd best by the duran fans, so yes the bar is set high for mayweather. Completelly agree!!

Where I disagree with is Mayweathers resume above 135. Many say he can only face the best during his era. Well he did not do that.

140 - he had 3 fights, brussels, Corley and Gatti. Not one of these fighters ar the best at 140. If we are going to slam Duran for his resumme with Marcel, Kyobashi, and Buchanon ( he is a good fighter) then we have to be honest here about Mayweather at 140.

147. His accomplishment at 147 is great. Moving up beating Judah, hatton, Baldomir, Mitchell. However these fighters are not the best at 147. Mayweather just retired last December. At that time, not one of these fighters where ranked by the ring magazine in their top 10. Williams, Cotto, Margorita,Clottery, Berto, all better fighters at welter than those who mayweather fought. Hatton is a great win, but at 147 Hatton was a bust. You and I know this. Hatton showed just how horrible he was at 147 in his previous fight with Callazo. You cant take the win from Mayweather but, you can point out that hatton was not effect at 147, we can base this on his two performances at the weight.

We can not have it both ways either. I always target Duran or loses between the age of 28-34. These are generally the best years, with some drop off around ( on average) age 32 or so , but the most drop off you generally see ( not talking about Hopkins) is around age 34 or later. You agreed with me and even targeted Duran fans for their disregarding Duran's loses during this time frame. Well how can you say on the other hand that Mayweather deserves a pass after age 29, as he is not peak anymore, with less than 40 fights, compared to a fighter with 74 at the time. You cant.

Brandish I am with you, I laugh my ass off at some of your post, BUT YOU HAVE TO BE CONSITENT, OBJECTIVE. Your review of Mayweather a great who needs not additional boosting, is to biased.

IMO he is below Duran based on the facts I pointed out above. Yes Duran is 1-5 vs the best fighters in his era. But he did beat SRL, was dominant over the lightweight division for a decade , and beat everyon at that division.

You and I agree that he did not beat great great fighters at that weight. However dominance over the lightweight division for a decade 70 fights, is better than having 3-4 fights in a division and not fighting the best.

Mayweather Can move up IMO if he comes back, and beats Pacman at 140, then Margo at welter. He will have shown his ability to beat 2 greats peak, and also take the risk of fighting a peak fighter than can trulyy beat him, and in this case poses physical challenges. Roy did with Ruiz, and to answer your question, yet Roy moving up 40 pounds (18 pound jump from lightheavy) from his original weight he won a title in, to fight Ruiz who is not that great, but did have the belt and outweight Roy on top of roy having to jump up to heavyweight limits, he outweighted him by 33 pounds. This is much different than mayweather moving up 17 pounds. In fact Roy did fight almost all the best at lightheavy, a weight class 15 pounds heavier than he originally started, vs Mayweather moving up 17. I give roy a big plus over mayweather.

Mayweather is now 32, roy was 35 when he had his first real loss. I guarantee you that if mayweather moved up super middle (which is 38 pounds difference to equal what roy did) and addes muscle, and fought the champ, he first off would not bring it to that champ the way roy did, he would probably fight him the same way he fought DlH, secondly I dont think he could beat any of the current 168 pound champions, 3rd, if he had to get back down to welter, it would impact him too, on top of the fact that 35 years old and doing this to your body at that that age is just devastating.

Again we seem to be on the same page most of the time. But lets be objective about mayweather.

[Brandish]

naw I didn't overstate just laid out the facts that floyd is in his fourth weight class why are cats expecting him to clean out 147 and 154 when duran, leonard, and hearns didn't do that. winning 5 titles in 5 weight classes by the age of 30 and going undefeated is a histyorical accomplishment in boxing since it has not been done before in the modern age of boxing.

that is not going overboard that is a fact.

people who don't like floyd want to attack his competiton at the time, I posted a link above lisitn ghte champions he defeated in each weight class and their performance in championship fights.

Mayweathers win over dlh, is no where near what Leoanrd's win over hagler was.

Dlh was not the undisputed Champ, nor the best at 154.
Dlh had moved up from 130 too, vs Hagler being at solid middle.

I wasn't discussing ray leonard or comparing ray coming out of retirement to win a close fught with marvin. you might want to go back and read my post. this isn't floyd vs leonard resume comparison. I have ray in my top 10, I wouldn't argue if someone had him top 5. but I would place roy in the top 5 before ray leonard.

Both wins are great accomplishments, but we have to put them in proper perspective. Leonard win over Hagler ranks as one of the greatest upsets ever, vs Mayweathers win of DlH looked upon as a black eye in boxing due to the dissappointment of the fight.

I wasn't disappointed in the fight, I thought it was a very good fight. I only heard a few cats on boxing message boards complaining about the fight. I wasn't expecting ward gatti, floyd is too smart for that. I like watching boxing especially at a high level,. Floyd is not well liked by certan sections because of what he has accomplished so the fact that he was fighting guys weighing 160+ on fight night handicapping his power and he only weighed 147 was very significant and was not without risk.


the best fighter at 140 when floyd was there was kosta tszyu, he was 35 hadn't fought in 2 years but people considered him the best fine, I'll go with that.

so kosta winds up losing to ricky hatton a guy not even rnaked in the top 5 jr welters at the time. floyd beats gatti who was ranked #1 by ring at the time. floyd destroys him in 2 with both cotto and ricky hatton sitting ringside.

so if hatton was the best at 140 and floyd beat hatton regardless of the division they fought at how can you say he didn't fight the best at 140. when he was coming up from 130 and 135.

147. His accomplishment at 147 is great. Moving up beating Judah, hatton, Baldomir, Mitchell. However these fighters are not the best at 147.

at the time he was fighting they were the best. unless you are trying to say judah wasn't the undisputed welterweight champion.

Mayweather just retired last December. At that time, not one of these fighters where ranked by the ring magazine in their top 10. Williams, Cotto, Margorita,Clottery, Berto, all better fighters at welter than those who mayweather fought. Hatton is a great win, but at 147 Hatton was a bust. You and I know this.

floyd retired that was his right, ray leoanrd retired many times did you think he did that to duck guys. floyd is known for having bad hands, ray retired because of his eye, why are you acting like it's some big conspiracy on the part of floyd to retire, and why are you trying to hold that against his legacy, when you don't do the same for ray and roy jones.

you are not being objective like you love to tell me, I think you need to ask yourself why is it not possible for floyd to retire but ok for ray to retire.

and as far as the hatton victory goes, saying hatton was not at his best is childish, it's like saying duran loss to leonard didn't count because ray didn't fight leonard at 135. come on wink, don't even stoop to that level.

We can not have it both ways either. I always target Duran or loses between the age of 28-34. These are generally the best years, with some drop off around ( on average) age 32 or so , but the most drop off you generally see ( not talking about Hopkins) is around age 34 or later. You agreed with me and even targeted Duran fans for their disregarding Duran's loses during this time frame. Well how can you say on the other hand that Mayweather deserves a pass after age 29, as he is not peak anymore, with less than 40 fights, compared to a fighter with 74 at the time. You cant.

how many of those 74 fights were against tough opposition. and I never said floyd deserves a pass, you insinuated that he was getting a pass by retiring. ray retired how many times again. fighters retire before the age of 25 sometimes, ray mancini, and the list goes on and on. it happens because boxing is a tough sport. floyd did what he had to do in his career he was and he did it by the age of 30.

I can understand people wanting him to fight on I would of liked to see him take margarito apart but he retired. I can't do anything but respect that.

Brandish I am with you, I laugh my ass off at some of your post, BUT YOU HAVE TO BE CONSITENT, OBJECTIVE. Your review of Mayweather a great who needs not additional boosting, is to biased.

the same has to apply to you as well, the fact that you want floyd to clean out his fourth weight class without holding any fighter in history to this standard is biased and is definiteyl not objective.

IMO he is below Duran based on the facts I pointed out above. Yes Duran is 1-5 vs the best fighters in his era. But he did beat SRL, was dominant over the lightweight division for a decade , and beat everyon at that division.

you didn't point out any facts about duran's resume you talked about floyd's level of comp and ray leoanrd coming back to defeat hagler, I haven't seen anything you typed above remotely reference duran's accomplsihments as it relates to floyd's.

well he may have beat sugar ray, but he quit in the rematch. joe frazier beat muhammad ali does that make jowe frazier a top 5 atg heavyweight or even top 10. floyd may not hve beat ray leoanrd but he never quit in a fight. and as far a I am concerned beating ray leoanrd or sugar ray robinson doesn't grant you automatic acceptance as one of the ten greatest fighters ever.

duran had a good run at 135 but that does not get you top 10 status. floyd didn't just have a good run at one division, he displayed a variety of skill sets to win those five titles at such a young age, something duran never showed in the ring hence the fact it took him to the age of 38 to win four titles.

You and I agree that he did not beat great great fighters at that weight. However dominance over the lightweight division for a decade 70 fights, is better than having 3-4 fights in a division and not fighting the best.

are you referring to floyd at 130, I could of swore floyd fought 75% of his fights at this weight. you might want to analyze floyds time at his dominant weight class. floyd is considered the greatest of all time at 130 duran is considered the greatest at 135 after that the comparisons end.

Mayweather Can move up IMO if he comes back, and beats Pacman at 140, then Margo at welter. He will have shown his ability to beat 2 greats peak, and also take the risk of fighting a peak fighter than can trulyy beat him, and in this case poses physical challenges. Roy did with Ruiz, and to answer your question, yet Roy moving up 40 pounds (18 pound jump from lightheavy) from his original weight he won a title in, to fight Ruiz who is not that great, but did have the belt and outweight Roy on top of roy having to jump up to heavyweight limits, he outweighted him by 33 pounds. This is much different than mayweather moving up 17 pounds.

.

from 130 to 154 is 24lbs. and I already have floyd in my top ten his legacy is secure in my book, and it may even rise what I finsih anaylzing the guys in the top 5. and i disaagree with you whenn you say margarito and pacman are atg's are you saying that try and diminsh floyd's record or do you really thin manny p and margarito are top 100 greats.

anothr thing are you saying that in 39 fights no fighter was ever favored to defeat floyd.

Mayweather is now 32, roy was 35 when he had his first real loss. I guarantee you that if mayweather moved up super middle (which is 38 pounds difference to equal what roy did) and addes muscle, and fought the champ, he first off would not bring it to that champ the way roy did, he would probably fight him the same way he fought DlH, secondly I dont think he could beat any of the current 168 pound champions, 3rd, if he had to get back down to welter, it would impact him too, on top of the fact that 35 years old and doing this to your body at that that age is just devastating.

roy weighed 199 the night of the fight aganst ruiz who weighed i beleive 224

a 25lb difference floyd fought delahoya and baldomir outwighed by 15+ pounds, floyd hs routinely been outweighed throughout his career come fight night. why would a guy who started at 130 need to go up to 168 7 weight division to surpass a guy who only went to four..forget that dont bother expalining I wouldn't beleive your answer any way.

Again we seem to be on the same page most of the time. But lets be objective about mayweather.

same goes for you bro you did you expect roy to clean out heavyweight his fourth weight class, be objective as well.

[wpink1]

Brandish...

If im correct Floyd had very few fights where he weighed in at or below the 130 pd limit. It is new years, and I am about to go out, so I dont have time to research, but I do remember researching this before.

1st point. No one is arguing that Mayweather accomplished a great great feat. No one is arguing the merits of winning the title at 147 and 154. The issue is quality of fighter's that Duran, Mayweather, Leonard, Jones all fought. Duran No boubt imo is not a top 10 based on quality. However what does have his name in the discussion is the fact he did dominate at lightweight for a decade. Now this does not do it for me, not even with a win over Ray, when ray decided to be ******/bravado and elect not to box, but brawl. For mayweather he has a lot of very very good wins on his resume, but it is not more impressive than Pac-mans. Only thing is mayweather is undefeated, but Pacman has beaten JMM, Morales,Barrera, then stopped DlH. This is very very impressive especially when you factor in he won 3 titles in one year. last person to do this was Armstrong.

Beating Baldomir and Judah who has been beaten by every good fighter he stepped in with is not that impressive quality wise, only because it was at 147 does it get any points. Having a SD win vs shot dlh is a good win on the resume, but do you think SRL, Jones, Pacman (who stopped dlh) all would have had such a bad showing vs DLH. I dont think so.

As for Roy being over Ray...I am struggling with that, but begrudginly I agree. Roy simply is a victim of not having duran, benetiz, hagler, leoanrd, hearns around to destroy, as he would have done if they where in his era. So I am with you there, but Roy is clearly above Mayweather too, clearly.



Retirement. Ray retired because in 81 he had a choice, either keep fighting against the advice ( in 81, later his physicians said new technology and therapies can allow for treatment in case he does reinjure his eye, and he negotiated thumbless gloves in his fights)of his family and experts. Ray also had the privledge of seeing Sugar Ray Seales go blind from making the decision to continue fighting. There are several others. Floyd has every right to quit boxing. Your completley right! He owes nothing to anyone, and he has indeed left his mark on boxing already.


Your also correct about his hands, in fact he has been on record talking about many parts of his body that need rest. However, my friend. Floyd unfortunately did not have 4 shining stars who where head and shoullders above everyone else that he could fight, and thus cement his legacy. That is not his fault,, that is simply the deck of cards he has been dealt. Ray had these 4, and after beating 3 of them, 1 loomed very large on him, his conscious, his legacy, and the media. Thus ray came out of retirment and took this fight. It is this fight that moved him into top 10 discussions, or to some top 20. With out hagler he would be a top 20-40 fighter all time. With this hagler victory and all the variable attributed to this fight, such as the retirement factor, moving up in weight, no tune up,,hagler being unbeaten in 10 years, having stopped every single challenger for his title except for duran, having just beaten his his most 3 challenging foes....this fight was simply Huge.

Here is the difference. Leoanrd made this fight. Thus far Mayweather while he does not have a hagler (dont even try to justify anyone on Mayweather resume as being a Hagler), he does not have a hearns, but Corrales is a good poor mans version of hearns, he does not have a duran, but Castillo is a very poor mans version of duran, he does have some Benetiz's.... So IMO Mayweather while he has done something Leoanrd, Duran, Jones (really did at this point in his career achieve actually more, only he had a dq at this point in his career and he did not stop and pick up the cruiserweight title, but roy covered more of a weight spread, than Mayweather did. 40 pounds vs 24). Even though mayweather has won 5 titles and retired undefeated, 140-147,154 are divisions that he simply picked and chose who he should fight. I can accept 140 being removed from this issue, but 147 Judah, Baldomir, hatton are all 3 below the Mosley's(who he did challenge), Clottery,berto, Margo, Wiliams, Cotto. Hell baldomir got so many beatings his win vs Judah is the only reason he is mentioned. Judah again lost to everyone with a pulse.

Did Duran go up and beat better fighters than Mayweather. With the exception of Leoanrd, no. Mayweathers success as he moved up gets the nod over Duran by me. However becasue of Ray and his dominance at lightweight, and because Mayweather will not (as of yet) fight the best at 147 then I can not rate him above fighters who do risk it. It just is horrible to boxing for Mayweather to do what he is doing. It is partially why people are going to UFC. Mayweather got his chance by champions when he was coming up, now that he is the man, he deserves to give other fighters the chance while he is reletivly peakish and not too old. I say around 33-34.

The same people struggle everyday for work, that make this country run, but give a lot of their money to support him when he fights, no deserve more. Not that he owes it to them via debt, but he owes it via gratitue, via simply doing whats right for boxing, via the best fighting the best and truly uplifting the sport. He could do that, and guess what Brandish...get this, Mayweather would probably win vs almost everyone of these fighters (except for Williams, wrong style for Mayweather, too much reach, to active, too long).

Risk it. Risk it, Risk it. Duran did and yes he went to sleep. Leonard did, and he came up smelling like roses. Roy did (somewhat) and earned the right to be in the top 5. Had he fought the best heavyweight out there (Lewis, he would have been destroyed) but had he fought him and won, he would be number one all time or 2. Brandish it is the risk that elevate you. Playing it somewhat safe (boxing is never safe) just simply does not elevate you as much as beating a hagler at 160 when you have been retired for 5 yrs with only 1 fight. Hell Duran at least took the risk of Tommy hearns at 154. Mosley took several risk Forrest, and Winky. He lost and thus he not the poudn per pound giant. Funny enough, Roger mayweather even commented on this, and said that it would be ****** for Mayweather to fight all these guys at 147, "look at what happened to Shane Mosly". Thus Roger, Floyd jr's own uncle, trainer and confident gave a insight to their thinking. Why risk it, when you dont have too. Well that thinking limits Mayweather IMO from being a top 5 where he technique and talent wise possibley belongs, and relegates him to top 10-15 where what he has done and vs whom, not just what title he won, but quality wise, what he has done in the ring places him aroud top 10-15.

Hell look at it like this. Leoard beat 4 top fighters all time. These fighters are pretty much unanamously in every top list everywhere. No one since Robinson, charles, langford, Greb, possibly Ali, can say that. So based on quality, Ray leoanrd deserves all time on anyone's list top 5-6. If it was quality of top opposition beat. However, he had only 39 career fights. Duran as much as I discredit his lightweight career moves up drastically in this measurment due to his dominance at lightweight. No he did not have the great great names, but he did beat everyone at that weight and did it for a long time. Again he also moved up and beat a prime leoanrd at 147. Mayweather does not have either one of these quallities to boast. So what mayweather fans have to do is build up the quality of numerous champions he beat, and point out that he beat a lot of very good champions, which he did, he also moved up and went undefeated in 5 different division winning titles. That is where the quallity of that last part, comes up short..

You know I am no Duran cheerleader, but to justify Duran as being a top fighter is simple. I have already layed that out above. However, IMO he is not a top 5-10 fighter. He is a legit top 10-15. Lets just say this, if your saying Mayweather should be up there for his accomplishments vs Hatton, baldomir and Dlh, as he moved up.... What if you have Dlh beat just as good fighters if not better as he moved up, but he also lost when he faced better fighter. So if you remove Hopkins who mayweather would never step in the ring with, remove Mosley and Trinidad, who are better fighters than mayweather has faced at the higher weight classes. If we look at quality, hell Whitacker, Vargas, Quartey, Chavez (same as shot Dlh) Oba Carr (same quality as Judah), Miguel Angel Gonzalez, Genero hernandez (dlh fought him when he was prime and undefeated 43-0) Mayweather caught him after this, Rafael Ruelas. DLH won a world title in his 12 title at lightweight and moved up to win at 154 too. Difference is DLH risked it and fought the best, even at 147 and 154, and 160. Mayweather has not.

Am I saying DLH is better than Mayweather of course not, but what I am saying is that many have moved up and beaten the quality and was undefeated while facing this level of competition. When Mayweather risk's it like Leonard, duran, Mosley, dlh have and beats a fighter that he is not supposed to beat, or that fighters his level of talent have generallly beaten, or that most feel pose a serious threat and is peak, then we have somehting to elevate him on. Remember Mosley was at the same level he was as far as being the pound per pound best in boxing, but he risked it, DlH risked it, etc.....