Duran is not a top ten ATG

[MaYaN_SuN]

CAREFULL JAB! HE'S GONNA PUT YOU ON HIS IGNORE LIST



lmao..

[JAB5239]

CAREFULL JAB! HE'S GONNA PUT YOU ON HIS IGNORE LIST



lmao..

Lol!! If he does, he does. Im willing to be civil, but people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks. Thats all Im saying.

[hugh grant]

I always liked Duran but he lost a few he shouldnt have. Kirkland lang he lost to. Pac man is better imo.

[Dynamite Kid]

I always liked Duran but he lost a few he shouldnt have. Kirkland lang he lost to. Pac man is better imo.

Laing fought a Duran that was on the slide not a prime Duran. Like ive already said Duran had 70+ fights by the time he fought Laing. Duran turned pro at something like 16 dont forget.

[wpink1]

Laing fought a Duran that was on the slide not a prime Duran. Like ive already said Duran had 70+ fights by the time he fought Laing. Duran turned pro at something like 16 dont forget.

AND? Whats the point..Duran had 70 fights but 30 of them where vs bums of the year candidates and his 1st 20 where fights that in many times both didnt even have trainers, especially duran who didnt have any trainer for the 1st 20, and the level of his opposition makes these fighters something like amateurs.. then you have fightrs like leoanrd who had 150 amateiur fights and after their 10th pro fight they continouslyl fought better and better opposition.

please do the research and tell the full story

[Dynamite Kid]

AND? Whats the point..Duran had 70 fights but 30 of them where vs bums of the year candidates and his 1st 20 where fights that in many times both didnt even have trainers, especially duran who didnt have any trainer for the 1st 20, and the level of his opposition makes these fighters something like amateurs.. then you have fightrs like leoanrd who had 150 amateiur fights and after their 10th pro fight they continouslyl fought better and better opposition.

please do the research and tell the full story

Bums of the year or not they are still allowed to hit you apparently. You could say the same thing for JCC, but at the end of the day he started to slide, because of the sheer amount of fights he has had. You punish your body and try and get it into shape that many times and have people hit you bums or not they will take something out of you. And lets face it JCC,Duran's style is not exactly based on a slick defence that does not allow their oponents to find them.

Only a fool would be oblivious to this or a hater. This thread is not a competition between Leonard and Duran you know.

[wpink1]

Bums of the year or not they are still allowed to hit you apparently. You could say the same thing for JCC, but at the end of the day he started to slide, because of the sheer amount of fights he has had. You punish your body and try and get it into shape that many times and have people hit you bums or not they will take something out of you. And lets face it JCC,Duran's style is not exactly based on a slick defence that does not allow their oponents to find them.

Only a fool would be oblivious to this or a hater. This thread is not a competition between Leonard and Duran you know.

First off if you dont like the content of my post, then do your american right....Dont read it. Secondly this a thread discussing the merits of Duran being a all time top pound per pound. the reason why leonard is almost always mentioned when considereing or measuring ray, is becaus they fought each other twice, in different styles, 2 of the 3 fights where meaningul fights around durans and leonard peak years. and both are considred all time top fighters. So if you are tired of the comparisons between leonard and duran, then again exercise your american citizenship rights...

Finally I have boxed, have you? if you know anything about boxing, you realize that haveing a extensive amateur career, and also the training that goes into fights, sparring etc...does a lot of damage to ones body, in fact in many fighters you get more damage done to you during training. If you follow boxing you will realize that some fighters had long amateur careers, and this does equal the beginning of most fighters career. However, Duran and JCC who you correctly brought up, did have many fights vs bums, and these level of fighters after they became champion is not what you see when you look at the leonards, Jones, Mayweather. Eachk time leonard stepped inside a ring the fighter was either a good professional or a great one, after leonards 13th fight or so....Can you say the same for Duran or JCC?

So again you all want to ignore the facts and try very hard to simply hid truths to keep up this aura of invincibility for Duran, but when the truth slaps you in the face you respond with weak and not well thought out responses. Duran started taking pounding to his body at age 16....At what age did leoanrd or mayweather start taking pounding? Amateur fight do take their toll, many times in the amateur ranks you take tremendous pounding from great figthers..Just ask Roy about his brutal amateur fight with McCllelan, or leonard bout Curry, or Hearns about Pryor....Leonard had 150 amateur fights...

As for slick defense, your right about Chavez, not haviing great defense, but Duran had all time defense. He had some of the best head movement coming in I have ever seen. His toe to toe fighting style is IMO top 10. He could come in and make 99.9 % of fighters miss their counters whe he was applying pressure. If you read my post you will see that I rate duran highly, just not top 10, and I have layed out FACTUAL EVIDENCE that you cant refute that shows you and others are judging duran on a different scale. You cant refute that Duran was 1-5 vs the top fighters of his generation. It is a fact. You cant refute that duran got ko'd in 2 by hearns. You cant refute that Duran resume at lightweight had at least 30 fighters that were bums and these where fights after he was a champion. You can refute that 4 of those 5 loses to the big 4 happened before Duran was age 34. You cant refute that many other fighters, have moved up just like duran and have not suffered to loses he has, or those that do move up are judged by their success at each weight they are at. You can not refute that, these are facts.

So since you cant refute it, what do you do,
1. try to ignore it
2. say well duran was not the same aft4r he quit... Hmmm so we are supposed to say at age 29 we should stop our review of durans career because we simply CHOOSE to look at the duran that we like, but other fighters including leonard, Jones etc..other fighters we generally look at the totality of their carer up until around age 34 and later.
3. Use excuses for each of his loses, dejesus, leonard, etc....
4. Try to ignore facts such as Roy jones beat 2 great great fighters vs Duran one, Jones beat them easily, vs duran barely winning the 1st only fight he would against the elite fighters...Duran moved up 12 pounds fought several fights to get prepared at the weight, roy jumped right up to 168 for
Toney. Duran got beat by dejesue even before leoanrd, Jones did not lose anyfight til age 35 except for a dq....Jones had a long amateur career Duran had 0 amateur fights....Jones dominated super middle, and light heavy..and middleweight...Duran did dominate lightweight,,that is it.....Jones moved up 40 and got a heavyweight title vs a man who outweighed him by 20-30 pounds....Duran went from lightweight to middle for a title...Jones and duran both 4 titles in different divisions..Jones beat 18 world champions past present futer, and 23 champions...Not sure how many duran beat

However even after all the facts as listed above, you all still refuse to accept facts and just say duran based on What?

[Kid McCoy]

FALSE,,,,,,, You somehow leave out age 29-34.....
Duran was only 29 when he quit vs leoanrd, and lost the other fights hearns, benetiz, hagler before the age of 34.

Not sure what that response has to do with what I said. Brandish listed a load of top middleweights whom he claims Duran "ducked" during the late 80s after beating Barkley, at which point Duran was nearly 38 and would have been in his 40s by the time he got around to facing them all. I repeat, Duran was well beyond his peak age and weight, and did not need to face Nunn, Benn and co.

Do your research about pryor callling out leonard, which your completley false,and shows that you dont know your stuff and rely on popular myth and bandwagon information. Pryor and leoanrd where actually great friends with Leonards mother serving as a stand in mother for Pryor. He earlly on would tag along with Leonard to his fights and if you go to many of leonards fights on youtube at the end you can actually see him holding Ray jr, while ray was doing interviews. Pryor called out Ray to make money. When pryor called out ray, in 81' this was when Ray was doing his media tour for his and Hearns fight. At the time, PRYOR WAS A NOBODY WHO HAD ONLYL BEATEN OLD CERVANTES. He did not fight Arguello (which landed him on the chart) at the end of Nov of 82. Guess when Ray leonard retired. Hmmmm Nov 2, 1982.

Popular myth, has it that leoanrd avoided pryor, he called him etc.... This is where I realize who is intelligent and who isnt. So lets see Leonard who just beat Duran, should have avoioded Hearns 32-0, 30kos at welterweight who had been calling him out for a while and threw a rubber duck at him in the press conference after his win over Duran....Your suggesting Ray should have ignored Hearns the WBA champ and fougth a fighter who had 0 big wins at the time and was not even a welter weight.....Right...... This entire myth is a result of HBO story detailing the unlucky career of Pyror, and since Ray Leonard was the man and controllled the money at the time, he was everyone's target.

But your wrong about Pryor and Duran. Do your research again. Just get Durans own autobiography. Duran admitted his managment went to Pryor manager and asked to not openly challenge Duran, as this was not a fight Duran wanted to make. BEFORE YOU ATTACK AND SAY THIS IS FALSE , GET DURANS BOOK HANDS OF STONE.....HIS AUTOBIOGRAPHY... It is in there.

Pryor was significant for 135 and 140, enough for a fighter at 135 to fight him, enough that Duran's people did not want any part of him. Again I suggest you do your research and a time line.....

Try to actually read what I said before going off on one. In that post above you've simultaneously referred to Pryor as a nobody and then claimed that Duran was instructing his managers to avoid him. Which is it, Pink? Or is he only a nobody when he calls out Ray Leonard and a legitimate dangerous fighter to be avoided at all costs when a Duran fight is touted? That seems to be your thinking. Brandish claimed that Duran ducked Pryor. He didn't skip 140 because he was avoiding Pryor, as many claim, because Pryor wasn't even a relevant 140lber at the time. Duran vacated his lightweight titles at the end of 1978, at which point Pryor was a 14-0 novice still building his record with has-beens and never-weres.

I also responded that while Pryor spent a lot of time calling out Leonard, I don't recall him ever wanting Duran that much. You're also talking bull****, Pryor made it abundantly clear that he wanted Leonard. Everything else you said is a response to something I didn't even say, since I never said Ray ducked him.

Incidentally, it was Pryor's fault that he and Duran didn't meet in the early 80s. Pryor's manager negotiated a deal for Duran to meet Pryor in about '82, but unfortunately Pryor went through attorneys like PBF goes through $100 bills, and his latest attorney advised him not to sign anything until he'd settled things with DeRosa, so the contract went unsigned and the chance to fight passed.

What people are on here claiming is tht Ray leonard beating Benetiez (ranked in the top 80 all time top fighters) beating Duran (ranked in some top 10), beating hagler (ranked in many top 25), beat hearns (ranked in many top 35).. is more wins versus top all time fighters than anyone else since at least Ali, and thus this coupled with his 5 titles, allows many based on QUALITY to be considered to all time.....Yes ray had a short career, but he accomplished more in a short career

beating duran 2-1
5 titles diff divisions, Duran 4
Beating everyone in the big 4..Duran lost to everyone in the big 4...

than Duran did in a long career......

The whole point of this thread is to tear down Duran, which you've done your fair share of, and now Ray Leonard is a top ten all-time great for having beaten him? You can't have it both ways Pink, he's either great or he's not. Barkley was apparently not much cop either, yet he twice beat Tommy Hearns, another fighter Leonard is claiming greatness from.

Five titles and wins against the Big Four looks good on paper, until you actually break them down.

Benitez - Very close and cagey fight, although I gave Leonard the edge, in which Benitez was controversially stopped on his feet with less than ten seconds to go. No rematch, despite Benitez chasing him for one for the next few years.

Duran - You seem to have overlooked that Duran won their first fight, and won convincingly. So, in the thinking of some in this thread, Ray was whooped by an overrated blown-up lightweight. Then the rematch. Duran turned up bloated and under-prepared, and then retired unhurt when nature called. Ray even likes to claim that he deliberately sought an early rematch, knowing that Duran had gone on a bender after Montreal. As for the rubbermatch, if Duran wasn't much good to begin, how the heck can Leonard get any credit for beating the 38-year old version?

Hearns - Ray was out-boxed for most of the night and well behind on the cards before pulling out the stoppage with a round to go. And again, no rematch for eight years? Come on.

Kalule - Unbeaten, but few notable names on his record, and only one fight outside of his native Denmark prior to facing Leonard. Ray got a title out of it, but not exactly a win which demonstrates dominance at a higher weight or shows him to be a top ten all-time great.

Hagler - Highly controversial SD when both were past their best. I had Hagler winning, but I accept that it was close and don't have a problem with those who gave it to Ray. And again...no rematch.

Lalonde - Won two paper titles in one night from Lalonde, who had to come down from 175 to 168 in an all-round joke of a fight. I can't believe you're actually giving Ray credit for this. Even he seemed embarrassed by it.

As I said earlier, between beating Benitez and beating Hagler, Leonard had eight fights. Eight fights in his prime years, four against journeymen. His claim to being a top ten great is based on beating four fighters - one a controversial stoppage in a chess match of a fight; one a natural lightweight who he lost to best vs best, and who you're claiming is vastly overrated anyway; one of whom lost twice to Iran Barkley and Ray only beat by the skin of his teeth, and the other a paper thin split decision against an aging great in conditions favourable to Ray. All close or controversial, and none settled with meaningful rematches.

Boxing did not begin with Ali, it began decades before he was even born, so it's a cop out to big Leonard up for more wins against top opponents since him. Not dis*****g Ray's talent, but it's far too excessive to rank him top ten.

I guess you intentionally left out or had amnesia that Ray was out of boxing for 6 years before he faced Camacho.. Duran was active. I guess that bit of information is not important to bring up huh... Did Leoanrd ever get stopped while he was active, like Duran did vs hearns, in 2...face down? Oh wasnt mosley a ligthweight fighing jr middleweights, was dlh originally 130... Wasnt Roy 160 originally and fought and beat a heavy....? I guess Duran is the only person who has moved up. Your correct on thing, he is the only person I know that moved up and went 1-5 vs the best in his era and still some idiots try to avoid addressing this, and they say he was 40...he was 1-4 vs the big 4 all before the age of 34, and lost to ray several years later, making his record vs ray 1-2 (ray had came out of retirment and beat a active duran) and 1-5 vs the big 4....what a joke!!

Do your research...!!

So Ray gets a pass for losing to Camacho, who was 34 himself, yet Duran still gets hammered for losing to Joppy at age 47. Another ridiculous contradiction. You do know that Duran had more fights after 1982 than Leonard managed in his entire career?

I'll repeat this once more. Duran was 29 and 71-1 at lightweight before he ever faced any of the big four. He then moved to up thoroughly whoop Leonard, taking his title and his unbeaten record. At the same point in his career, Leonard had had half as many fights, was effectively finished as a top level fighter and only had his sights on padding his record with money fights against the battle weary veterans Hagler, Hearns and Duran. At the same point in his career, PBF has had half as many fights, failed to clean out a single division and has studiously avoided the best since his 135 days, preferring to pad his record with paper belts and shopworn big name fighters.

When Duran faced the rest of the big four, he was a natural lightweight long past his peak with much more wear and tear facing top fighters who were bigger, younger and possessed every physical advantage. What he achieved after 1980 was icing on an already impressive cake.

[wpink1]

Kid mccoy your post is so factless and weak that i pains me to respond. You really need to learn the facts...Such as pryor and leonard issue... go back and do your own timeline... You will see a fight between the two was never an option. Just do your own research. hint Arguello fight came about after Leoanrd retired.

As for Leonard beating the top 4 and you trying to discredit it.. What a joke. You say all leonard wins where controverisal or close. Hmmm

Benetiz - stopped
Duran- quit was losing on all 3 scorecards
hearns - stopped, had to be carried out the ring...almost had hearns stopp rounds 6-7-13 and 14
hagler - ray was retired for 5 years only 1 fight, and mvoed up with out a tune up...

Where is the controversy.....


As for your weakest point...yes Camacho fight should be ignored when evaluating ray,,just like Holmes berbick fights are ignored when evaluating ali, the last loses for chavez too, and For duran as well. I have never factored in Durans loses when he was older, I repeatedly point out between aged 28-34

Save the weak...I will repeat this once again garbage..No one cares, you can repeat it all night...Duran resume in those 71 wins was horrible.. Just tell me this, Marcil and Kyobashi? these are the two bums that many list as justification for his resume...Please. You have the nerve to target a undefeated kalule, but duran best at lightwieght dejesus, buchanon, Kayabashi, marcel...etc.. cant touch Ray's jock.

You keep on saying Duran convincingly beat Ray.. In what dream. Maybe you dont know the facts....Duran won the montreal fight by the slimmest of margins, in fact on round scored differently...One round, Leoanrd wins. Yeh this is very convincing..but you on the other hand say when leoanrd stopes Benetiz, Hearns...hmm an yes even after 7 scored rounds in the 2nd fight, Ray was already ahead by more points on the score card than Duran eventually won the 1st fight by, and the 8th round was not factored into those scored which would have made it leonard by 3 points on 2 cards and by 2 on another.

Learn your facts... Your a joke, debating yoiu on here is like taking candy from a kid...

You want us to say Duran should not be measured by his losses between age 28-34, but every other figher in history should be. Duran should only be measured by his success (vs all time weak resume of wins at lightweight) at lightwieght, but every other fighter should be measured by their entire career, including your weak attempt to say Camacho fight should count against leoanrd.

What a joke... Where would you consider roy jones....

He dominated not one but 3 divisons
he was undefeated until age 35 excert for a a dq
he beat two great to durans 1
he had 4 titles and duran had 4 titles
He moved up 40 pounds to fight and beat a heavyweight champion who
still outweighted him by 20-30 pounds.


So tell me based on objective reasoning how can you rank duran ahead of Jones.......

[Vasyl’s dad]

So wpink thinks amateurs have it harder than pros.

only on NSB.