Measured Against All Time - James Toney

[Lights0ut]

Very nice article. Hopefully James brings his A game tonight.

[-Hyperion-]

this articles still make 0 sense.............................

[Allucard]

yea real great. cliff should slap himself if he has calzaghe an all time great and not oscar. you think oscar couldn't get a crappy wbo belt and defend it 21 times against bums then move up and beat a faded julio cesar chavez? guess we should reward people for being such ******* like calzaghe.

I agree but what can you do? We should learn to live with it. Of course the bar has been lowered significantly since they decided Calzaghe was a ATG but he does look good on paper for casual fans (the kind who thought Hopkins was 23 and Jones was in his prime types of fans) but the truth is they had to lower the bar tremendously to fit Joe in. If you look at this decade alone we have DOZENS of all time great fighters! Is that really so? Oscar- ATG, Mosley- ATG, Floyd- ATG, Marquez-ATG, Pacquiao-ATG, Ricky Hatton- ATG, Barrera-ATG, Morales-ATG, Chad Dawson will be an ATG some near 09 and he's like 26, because all of these fighters accomplished more than Joe Calzaghe and they, as main****** media, have to be coherent.
This is bad for boxing but it's not the worse situation we have. Promoters and fighter ducking is far worse. There are already fighters in Europe waiting to pull a Calzaghe in Europe and cash on their padded, undefeated records when the time is right. Remember kids, if you buy bad events they will try to sell you worse, because the worse they sell, the higher their profits are.

[crold1]

I agree but what can you do? We should learn to live with it. Of course the bar has been lowered significantly since they decided Calzaghe was a ATG but he does look good on paper for casual fans (the kind who thought Hopkins was 23 and Jones was in his prime types of fans) but the truth is they had to lower the bar tremendously to fit Joe in. If you look at this decade alone we have DOZENS of all time great fighters! Is that really so? Oscar- ATG, Mosley- ATG, Floyd- ATG, Marquez-ATG, Pacquiao-ATG, Ricky Hatton- ATG, Barrera-ATG, Morales-ATG, Chad Dawson will be an ATG some near 09 and he's like 26, because all of these fighters accomplished more than Joe Calzaghe and they, as main****** media, have to be coherent.
This is bad for boxing but it's not the worse situation we have. Promoters and fighter ducking is far worse. There are already fighters in Europe waiting to pull a Calzaghe in Europe and cash on their padded, undefeated records when the time is right. Remember kids, if you buy bad events they will try to sell you worse, because the worse they sell, the higher their profits are.

Do you consider Holmes, Lopez or Marciano All-Time Greats?

[-Hyperion-]

but the truth is they had to lower the bar tremendously to fit Joe in. If you look at this decade alone we have DOZENS of all time great fighters! Is that really so? Oscar- ATG, Mosley- ATG, Floyd- ATG, Marquez-ATG, Pacquiao-ATG, Ricky Hatton- ATG, Barrera-ATG, Morales-ATG, Chad Dawson will be an ATG some near 09 and he's like 26, because all of these fighters accomplished more than Joe Calzaghe and they, as main****** media, have to be coherent.

i agree with this only......the rest of your post is irrational hate......


but the worst part is cliff isnt even coherent..........i mean, the guy who was undefeated 24-0 20KO's 2 linear championships, plus two more alphabet titles, victories over hernandez leija molina paez ruelas chavez gonzalez and whitaker(all of them destructions except obviously the controversial whitaker fight....but hey james toney didnt lose to tiberi so i guess its safe to say this articles are based on paper) and was p4p #1 at the age of 24 didnt do as good as calzaghe or toney.......

[Addition]

.....ahhhh, ok.

My thoughts exactly. He's a joke poster who can't keep Calzaghe's name out of his mouth.

yea real great. cliff should slap himself if he has calzaghe an all time great and not oscar. you think oscar couldn't get a crappy wbo belt and defend it 21 times against bums then move up and beat a faded julio cesar chavez? guess we should reward people for being such ******* like calzaghe.

Again mentioning Calzaghe's name in a thread which has nothing to do with him. Seek help you desperate, delusional tool.

[crold1]

i agree with this only......the rest of your post is irrational hate......


but the worst part is cliff isnt even coherent..........i mean, the guy who was undefeated 24-0 20KO's 2 linear championships, plus two more alphabet titles, victories over hernandez leija molina paez ruelas chavez gonzalez and whitaker(all of them destructions except obviously the controversial whitaker fight....but hey james toney didnt lose to tiberi so i guess its safe to say this articles are based on paper) and was p4p #1 at the age of 24 didnt do as good as calzaghe or toney.......

Molina and Gonzalez were not destructions. As to the P4P thing, it was Ring argument, but more of a protest vote against RJJ than a serious rating. In 1997, Jones got DQ'd and Oscar got made to look silly by Whitaker. Jones came back and avenged his DQ in a round against a good Griffin. DLH moved on to Kamau and Camacho, and never rematched Whitaker. Ring's #1 to DLH was silly.

Toney and DLH would be more comparable had Toney not come back late in his career to topple Jirov and then hang with the Heavies. Both Oscar and Toney had phenomenal starts to their careers and troubles starting around their sixth year; Toney rode his rough wave back to elite status. Factor in, stacking best years, that his best wins in 1991 (Nunn, Johnson, McCallum by draw which everyone but the judges saw otherwise) were against slightly better fighters than the one's Oscar beat in 1995 (Ruelas, Molina, Hernandez, Leija). Also factor that Oscar, unlike Toney, arguably never decisively beat the absolute best fighter in any weight class he was competing in (Hernandez was the best at 30 in a bout at 35) even with lots of solid wins and he has the same number of losses in almost 40 fewer fights.

It's not a wide chasm, but Toney>Oscar isn't that tough a case.

[-Hyperion-]

Molina and Gonzalez were not destructions. As to the P4P thing, it was Ring argument, but more of a protest vote against RJJ than a serious rating. In 1997, Jones got DQ'd and Oscar got made to look silly by Whitaker. Jones came back and avenged his DQ in a round against a good Griffin. DLH moved on to Kamau and Camacho, and never rematched Whitaker. Ring's #1 to DLH was silly.

Toney and DLH would be more comparable had Toney not come back late in his career to topple Jirov and then hang with the Heavies. Both Oscar and Toney had phenomenal starts to their careers and troubles starting around their sixth year; Toney rode his rough wave back to elite status. Factor in, stacking best years, that his best wins in 1991 (Nunn, Johnson, McCallum by draw which everyone but the judges saw otherwise) were against slightly better fighters than the one's Oscar beat in 1995 (Ruelas, Molina, Hernandez, Leija). Also factor that Oscar, unlike Toney, arguably never decisively beat the absolute best fighter in any weight class he was competing in (Hernandez was the best at 30 in a bout at 35) even with lots of solid wins and he has the same number of losses in almost 40 fewer fights.

It's not a wide chasm, but Toney>Oscar isn't that tough a case.

i never said he was better.......i said as good as...by which i mean around the same level...whitaker made oscar look silly(nice word for soemeone impartial)...ok i guess thats supposed to be a bad thing even though whitaker was universally recognised as a top 3 p4p at worst(even after the bad performances).......in a fight that at least 40% thought oscar won....and he officially won......i guess by that definition, toney was made look mega silly by griffin..........and god i wonder your definition for him vs tiberi or thazdi........wait you bring the mcallum draw up, yet say oscar never beat the #1 guy in a division....even though everyone but the judges thought he beat trinidad.......be consistent cliff.....i am led to think this is all by paper and then you come up with this....ok maybe that trinidad victory wasnt on paper so lets not count it.......what about vargas??on paper vargas beat the guy you said was the #1 lmw(winky) and winky hadnt fought a terrific level of opposition(avodied, but w-e)...so how wasnt he the #1????in fact, wasnt vargas-dlh for the linear lmw title??isnt that supposed to be the #1 vs #2??....and did de la hoya not KO him decisively?

[crold1]

i never said he was better.......i said as good as...by which i mean around the same level...whitaker made oscar look silly(nice word for soemeone impartial)...ok i guess thats supposed to be a bad thing even though whitaker was universally recognised as a top 3 p4p at worst(even after the bad performances).......in a fight that at least 40% thought oscar won....and he officially won......i guess by that definition, toney was made look mega silly by griffin..........and god i wonder your definition for him vs tiberi or thazdi........wait you bring the mcallum draw up, yet say oscar never beat the #1 guy in a division....even though everyone but the judges thought he beat trinidad.......be consistent cliff.....i am led to think this is all by paper and then you come up with this....ok maybe that trinidad victory wasnt on paper so lets not count it.......what about vargas??on paper vargas beat the guy you said was the #1 lmw(winky) and winky hadnt fought a terrific level of opposition(avodied, but w-e)...so how wasnt he the #1????in fact, wasnt vargas-dlh for the linear lmw title??isnt that supposed to be the #1 vs #2??....and did de la hoya not KO him decisively?

Actually, DLH was already the linear champions at 154 by way of the Castillejo win and fights for lineal titles don't ever necessarily mean 1-2 because the champ by succession is not always the division's best fighter.

On a few other points...

I defined Tiberi and Thadzi as embarassing and/or national outrage.

No shame in struggling with Whitaker, but there were moments in that fight where Oscar DID look sily, missing punches by feet rather than Whitaker's normal subtle inches. The fights were nothing like Toney-Griffin in the ring so whose working off paper? And while many had Tito losing to Oscar (I actually had Tito ahead one point at the end), it was an ass fight where DLH skated off for the final four rounds like he was scared to be touched; Toney-McCallum was one of the best fights of the 90s and best Middleweight fights ever.

Overall, I can agree Toney and DLH are near the same level. I just think the best fighters Toney beat were a hair better, so were most of the fights, and he in the ring was a superior talent. DLH isn't far off from ATG status. He's not Mancini (not an insult; good fighter) or something.

[-Hyperion-]

Actually, DLH was already the linear champions at 154 by way of the Castillejo win and fights for lineal titles don't ever necessarily mean 1-2 because the champ by succession is not always the division's best fighter.

On a few other points...

I defined Tiberi and Thadzi as embarassing and/or national outrage.

No shame in struggling with Whitaker, but there were moments in that fight where Oscar DID look sily, missing punches by feet rather than Whitaker's normal subtle inches. The fights were nothing like Toney-Griffin in the ring so whose working off paper? And while many had Tito losing to Oscar (I actually had Tito ahead one point at the end), it was an ass fight where DLH skated off for the final four rounds like he was scared to be touched; Toney-McCallum was one of the best fights of the 90s and best Middleweight fights ever.

Overall, I can agree Toney and DLH are near the same level. I just think the best fighters Toney beat were a hair better, so were most of the fights, and he in the ring was a superior talent. DLH isn't far off from ATG status. He's not Mancini (not an insult; good fighter) or something.

ok my bad with the vargas thing(though then id say oscar defended against the #1 callenger.....)....and i wasnt comparing the fights itself.....but seriously another point for me....having tito winning means you pretty much gave every round he didnt get dominated to him....which to me proves a clear bias against oscar......seriously your articles make valid points....but to me the oscar one is written with a tad bit of bias against him because of your personal preference....like i said, i dont care if clazaghe-toney-oscar are ATG's or not......but im saying if Calzaghe and Toney are, Oscar is... end of...