Measured Against All Time - James Toney

[Mr.Fantastic]

This dude puts James Toney as an all time great while Toney cheated twice and yet people like him and forum dudes put someone as De La Hoya as just a HOF even if DLH accomplished more.

[IronDanHamza]

Uh, Wlad rings a bell.

I don't rate him highly all time, but I know people who do, and I would say as a devil's advocate that he beat no top fighter dominantly. No defining opponent in their prime.

My only point is that that really shouldn't be a barometer without considering the context of era, opportunities at the time, etc.

Well first and foremost Wlad isn't an ATG and secondly, Wlad beat loads of top fighters in dominant fashion.

[IronDanHamza]

This dude puts James Toney as an all time great while Toney cheated twice and yet people like him and forum dudes put someone as De La Hoya as just a HOF even if DLH accomplished more.

Not a fan of De La Hoya and don't consider him an ATG (arguable) but he's greater than Toney for my money.

[Mr.Fantastic]

Not a fan of De La Hoya and don't consider him an ATG (arguable) but he's greater than Toney for my money.

A guy that has won titles in 6 divisions isn't an ATG? This is something that not many boxers have done or are doing in this time.

Even if I weren't to of been a boxing fan of his, I would still give him his props on what he's done.

[LoadedWraps]

Well first and foremost Wlad isn't an ATG and secondly, Wlad beat loads of top fighters in dominant fashion.

I agree about Wlad not being an ATG (even though many on here disagree with that) I was merely playing devil's advocate.

I do disagree for the most part that he has beaten "loads of top fighters", I'd say he's beaten loads of belt holders, which is different.

[IronDanHamza]

A guy that has won titles in 6 divisions isn't an ATG? This is something that not many boxers have done or are doing in this time.

Even if I weren't to of been a boxing fan of his, I would still give him his props on what he's done.

Really should be 5 though shouldn't it?

Still impressive by all means but doesn't necessarily make him an ATG.

Although I wouldn't argue with you that much if you said he was anyway.

[Mr.Fantastic]

Really should be 5 though shouldn't it?

Still impressive by all means but doesn't necessarily make him an ATG.

Although I wouldn't argue with you that much if you said he was anyway.

The same deal with Floyd with Castillo. Many thought he lost against him like many thought DLH lost against Sturm. Another thing, if you want to say he did lost, you should count the ones where people thought he won(Trinidad/Mosley2). It's only fair right?

There are people that put boxers that have done less and have less skills than DLH.

[IronDanHamza]

The same deal with Floyd with Castillo. Many thought he lost against him like many thought DLH lost against Sturm. Another thing, if you want to say he did lost, you should count the ones where people thought he won(Trinidad/Mosley2). It's only fair right?

There are people that put boxers that have done less and have less skills than DLH.

Not really because he beat him in the rematch so that would still make him a 5 weight champion even if you think he lost. Plus, the first fight was close.

I thought Oscar lost to Sturm pretty clear but I'll admit I haven't rewatched it. Plus didn't win a rematch.

I thought he beat Trinidad (close) and Mosey 2 (close but clear) and lost to Quartey(close), Whitaker (close) so it's a bit of both. IMO none were robberies except arguably Mosley 2.

Either way, it's arguable. Wouldn't argue too hard against someone that think so.

[RobotBoy]

Yes

Toney was an all-timer.
I've been around boxers for thirty years and i don't think I've ever seen a fighter spend as much time in the gym as Toney. He'd be the first man in the gym and the last to leave, and he only left the ring when there were no more sparring partners to bruise.
His one and enormous problem was the buffet table. No matter how much he trained, he ate more.
All of his bad fights - Jones, etc., - were due to him being drained from losing so much weight.
I've watched the Griffin fights at least eight times. He won those fights going away but was being punished for dumping his trainer.
He won the first Peter fight by a good amount also.
I think he beats B-Hop pretty handily if they fought at, say, super middle. A healthy Toney might struggle against prime Roy Jones but only because Jones would spend the entire fight on his bicycle. Toney would have been great in any era. The chin alone...