MAYweather vs PACquaio: BATTLE FOR SUPREMACY !!!

[komatoz]

this can only be proven if they fight

[Benny Leonard]

QUOTE=Pullcounter;4987715}
so what's the big deal then?

We are talking about who has the advantage. Pac has the advantage in this department because he has healthy hands.

but he faces that possibility everytime he fights.

This is true, which is one of the reasons he retired but people don't want to hear that. They just want to insist he is a coward. It causes a decline in your Mental and Physical ability so he has been fighting like this for quite some time and his hands were never going to get better.

winnning or reyes... floyd's still gonna potshot

Depends on how you see it. Can you clarify it for me: Do you think he was into just pot-shots his entire career or did he start to become that way?

Remember, against Gatti, he was wearing "Winning" gloves and so too with prior fights when he started getting serious hand trouble.

you already said it in a prior post... he's fighitng guys that are too big for him

??? So he doesn't use the jab and doesn't move as much because he is fighting bigger guys?
Why would you decrease your weapons?

a potshotting floyd

Very true. I should of added the "more caution" part with this one too.

the difference is floyd's career goal is to beat dlh and pac's career goal isn't to beat floyd.

Then Freddie and Pac should not mention his name and fans should not be harsh towards Floyd in this case.

when then he should take a tune up

He could actually lose the tune-up so there would be no point in even risking it. Just stick at the weight you feel 100% healthy at.

History doesn't favor a move back down.

well then floyd should take the fight then

Hahahaha. So you have been joking the whole time, right?
That or you want Floyd to lose when he is not at his best.

agreed

I can't root against Pac because I like him to much but I not a fan of Freddie.

[strugler]

I can't root against Pac because I like him to much but I not a fan of Freddie.

You like the student but you despise the Master interesting.......... you like luke the skywalker but you hate Yoda.

[Benny Leonard]

I doubt PBF cares if its 140 or at a catch weight too.

Actually, Freddie's thoughts were that Floyd would want the fight at 147. Remember, he made Hatton come up to him because Hatton wanted the fight.

Plus, in an interview with Roger Mayweather, I thought I heard Roger say that Floyd wouldn't go back down below 147 because Floyd doesn't want to make weight anymore or couldn't make weight. Even if Floyd comes in at 149 for his WW fights by fight-time {a usual weight for a JrWW for fight-time weight}, Floyd may not like to have to drain himself for the scales or worry about it during training camp. Especially now that he has been inactive and hasn't had to go below 147 since 2005.
If he is at 149 and has to make 147, all he has to do is take a piss and he should be good.

Plus, given the way Floyd discusses things about fighters, he will probably bring up the fact that Manny already fought at 147 and won so there should be no problem making the fight there.
Floyd will have a field day with that one.

[Benny Leonard]

You like the student but you despise the Master interesting.......... you like luke the skywalker but you hate Yoda.

Freddie isn't Yoda unless Yoda has a dirty side to him.

Pac is also a student of Christianity, his Mother, self-exploration, and his Environment; so he isn't only taking one class of instructions.

[Pullcounter]

We are talking about who has the advantage. Pac has the advantage in this department because he has healthy hands.

so? floyd has every other advantage (skill, experience, defense, etc...) except speed, but that can be overcome with timing.

This is true, which is one of the reasons he retired but people don't want to hear that. They just want to insist he is a coward. It causes a decline in your Mental and Physical ability so he has been fighting like this for quite some time and his hands were never going to get better.

so he should just stay retired?

Depends on how you see it. Can you clarify it for me: Do you think he was into just pot-shots his entire career or did he start to become that way?

Remember, against Gatti, he was wearing "Winning" gloves and so too with prior fights when he started getting serious hand trouble.

he started potshotting once he got to WW where he was too small to use his full arsenal.

??? So he doesn't use the jab and doesn't move as much because he is fighting bigger guys?
Why would you decrease your weapons?

because throwing punches leaves you open. a tight defense is appropriate given he is fighting above his best weight, which IMHO was 140.

Then Freddie and Pac should not mention his name and fans should not be harsh towards Floyd in this case.

freddie and pac can use floyd as promotion.

fans should not be so harsh on floyd.

He could actually lose the tune-up so there would be no point in even risking it. Just stick at the weight you feel 100% healthy at.

you don't need to choose a tough tune up

History doesn't favor a move back down.

true, but never was that heavy at WW anyways. if floyd was like cotto and weighted 170 lbs, going down to 140 would be a ****** idea.

Hahahaha. So you have been joking the whole time, right?
That or you want Floyd to lose when he is not at his best.

No, I feel that floyd is so good that he can handicap himself and still win

I can't root against Pac because I like him to much but I not a fan of Freddie.

that's cool, but freddie is smart and gets his fighter as much advantage as possible. in close fights, the little things matter.

[Benny Leonard]

QUOTE=Pullcounter;4989069]so? floyd has every other advantage (skill, experience, defense, etc...) except speed, but that can be overcome with timing.

so he should just stay retired?

Agree: he should stay retired if he can't give a great showing of himself.

he started potshotting once he got to WW where he was too small to use his full arsenal.

Possibly true but not quite sure. It could have been a combination of protecting his hands and being too cautious to lose {protecting his "O"}

He also got into the habit of letting rounds go by without having the need to win every round. Hopkins started to do this as well when he got into his 30's. Roy also got into more pot-shots when he was in his 30's.

You don't have to give up your arsenal of punches, especially your jab which is the KEY to fighting, just because your opponent is bigger. He could have fought them like he did Diego but maybe age, wear and tear, and increased weight doesn't allow him to move as well as his lighter days. Not to bad against Baldomir but he did pot-shot a lot.

because throwing punches leaves you open. a tight defense is appropriate given he is fighting above his best weight, which IMHO was 140.

It also keeps fights very close. You can keep your opponent off balance with the jab and combination as well as foot movement and elusiveness.

freddie and pac can use floyd as promotion.

They probably will just like Hatton has done during his career.

you don't need to choose a tough tune up

Still not sure he does it.

true, but never was that heavy at WW anyways. if floyd was like cotto and weighted 170 lbs, going down to 140 would be a ****** idea.

It would be an interesting question to ask Floyd or Roger about it again.

No, I feel that floyd is so good that he can handicap himself and still win

I think the younger version of Floyd dominates Pac but I'm not quite sure now. He could still win and should be favored but I think given everything I listed, Pac has a closer chance to win (even though at times I'm not sure he can given some of the fights I've seen him battle in).

that's cool, but freddie is smart and gets his fighter as much advantage as possible. in close fights, the little things matter.

Yes, and I understand it as well. They do this in War and they also do it in other sports. However, a greater victory comes in beating your opponent at his best but at the same time, if you don't use certain tactics, you are also accepting not using all of what is within your power to do in order to win.

[Pullcounter]

Agree: he should stay retired if he can't give a great showing of himself.



Possibly true but not quite sure. It could have been a combination of protecting his hands and being too cautious to lose {protecting his "O"}

floyd lets his hands go if he know he doesn't have anything to fear coming back.

He also got into the habit of letting rounds go by without having the need to win every round. Hopkins started to do this as well when he got into his 30's. Roy also got into more pot-shots when he was in his 30's.

yeah, i noticed that too, he's either taking a break or letting his opponent gas themselves out. he doesn't do this against overmatched opponents though

You don't have to give up your arsenal of punches, especially your jab which is the KEY to fighting, just because your opponent is bigger. He could have fought them like he did Diego but maybe age, wear and tear, and increased weight doesn't allow him to move as well as his lighter days. Not to bad against Baldomir but he did pot-shot a lot.

he don't jab because his opponents at WW can probably walk throught the jab

It also keeps fights very close. You can keep your opponent off balance with the jab and combination as well as foot movement and elusiveness.

true, but if you open up you can get countered

I think the younger version of Floyd dominates Pac but I'm not quite sure now. He could still win and should be favored but I think given everything I listed, Pac has a closer chance to win (even though at times I'm not sure he can given some of the fights I've seen him battle in).

all i know is jmm gave pac fits... that means floys wins even at a catchweight

Yes, and I understand it as well. They do this in War and they also do it in other sports. However, a greater victory comes in beating your opponent at his best but at the same time, if you don't use certain tactics, you are also accepting not using all of what is within your power to do in order to win.

yeah, but flip that to floyd's perspective... floyd gets greater glory for handicapping himself.

[Benny Leonard]

QUOTE=Pullcounter;4989459]floyd lets his hands go if he know he doesn't have anything to fear coming back.

Maybe now but not back when he was younger. Although, maybe this has to do with the size of his opponents but I still say it is more in line with the way he think now compared to then. He talked about this in an interview leading up to Hatton.

Easier just to show this:

yeah, i noticed that too, he's either taking a break or letting his opponent gas themselves out. he doesn't do this against overmatched opponents though

So does he have some stamina issues because of the weight (compared to his lighter self) or maybe age?

Or maybe he just wants to do enough to win and figures if his math is right, he can take the 5th round on when the opponent may not be 100%. 90% of an opponent is better to fight than a fresh one.

he don't jab because his opponents at WW can probably walk throught the jab

The jab is a set-up punch. You don't have to hit like Foreman, Liston or Tyson with your jab to set-up other punches. It keeps a punch in the face of the opponent to blind his vision for other punches to come. They also add up if you keep throwing them. Floyd has pop in his punches; he is not feather-fisted and it's not like he has short arms. Plus, he is great with timing. However, maybe the accumalation of jabbing swells his hands up so he doesn't do it...not sure. It would be an interesting question to ask him.

He has speed and agility over those big opponents.

I like the way he fought Chico.

true, but if you open up you can get countered

That's boxing. That's why Floyd works on his defense and elusiveness. He also used to keep fighter's off balance with his combinations and movement.

all i know is jmm gave pac fits... that means floys wins even at a catchweight

JMM and a past prime Morales (who won against Pac)...this is true.

yeah, but flip that to floyd's perspective... floyd gets greater glory for handicapping himself.

Floyd tried this with regards to his win against Oscar. Compare what people say about his win and Manny's, how many favor Floyd's victory?

Most don't think that way. If you argue prime, people rarely seem to care or have such a broad view of it that they don't see any decline until the fighter is a ghost. Although, even then, I've seen people say the ghost was still good.
They continue to go on the line of "no excuses"
instead of seeing reason(s). Most don't want to put the work in understanding everything that goes on so it is simpler to keep things simple. You Win, You lose; no excuses.
I wish I knew a lot more that goes on, specifically behind the scenes so that I could give a better prediction and analysis of the fight. The intricacy
of the sport is very interesting.

I've always liked Bobby D.'s character from the movie "Casino."
He was a betting man and because of that, he needed to know every detail before he placed a bet. Why? Because everything mattered.

Being handicapped going into the fight won't work for Floyd because few like him so he is better off coming in at a healthy weight and also choosing his glove of choice.
When he brought up that he had to move up to 154 and Oscar chose his gloves, many just said he was a ***** and should shut up and just fight.
It's the same when he fought Castillo the first time with a bad shoulder. He went into that fight injured but only Floyd fans seem to see it as a great accomplishment that he could even fight. Bring up the second fight and it is like it didn't happen.
Same with Roy Jones when he beat Hopkins with one good hand.

If it is at 140, most will just say, "So what, he wasn't a big fighter anyway."

Look at the discussion with division weight vs. fight-time weight. How many actually care that the fighters are not actually fighting at the division number/weight?

[Horus]

Maybe now but not back when he was younger. Although, maybe this has to do with the size of his opponents but I still say it is more in line with the way he think now compared to then. He talked about this in an interview leading up to Hatton.

Easier just to show this:






So does he have some stamina issues because of the weight (compared to his lighter self) or maybe age?

Or maybe he just wants to do enough to win and figures if his math is right, he can take the 5th round on when the opponent may not be 100%. 90% of an opponent is better to fight than a fresh one.



The jab is a set-up punch. You don't have to hit like Foreman, Liston or Tyson with your jab to set-up other punches. It keeps a punch in the face of the opponent to blind his vision for other punches to come. They also add up if you keep throwing them. Floyd has pop in his punches; he is not feather-fisted and it's not like he has short arms. Plus, he is great with timing. However, maybe the accumalation of jabbing swells his hands up so he doesn't do it...not sure. It would be an interesting question to ask him.

He has speed and agility over those big opponents.

I like the way he fought Chico.



That's boxing. That's why Floyd works on his defense and elusiveness. He also used to keep fighter's off balance with his combinations and movement.




JMM and a past prime Morales (who won against Pac)...this is true.



Floyd tried this with regards to his win against Oscar. Compare what people say about his win and Manny's, how many favor Floyd's victory?

Most don't think that way. If you argue prime, people rarely seem to care or have such a broad view of it that they don't see any decline until the fighter is a ghost. Although, even then, I've seen people say the ghost was still good.
They continue to go on the line of "no excuses"
instead of seeing reason(s). Most don't want to put the work in understanding everything that goes on so it is simpler to keep things simple. You Win, You lose; no excuses.
I wish I knew a lot more that goes on, specifically behind the scenes so that I could give a better prediction and analysis of the fight. The intricacy
of the sport is very interesting.

I've always liked Bobby D.'s character from the movie "Casino."
He was a betting man and because of that, he needed to know every detail before he placed a bet. Why? Because everything mattered.

Being handicapped going into the fight won't work for Floyd because few like him so he is better off coming in at a healthy weight and also choosing his glove of choice.
When he brought up that he had to move up to 154 and Oscar chose his gloves, many just said he was a ***** and should shut up and just fight.
It's the same when he fought Castillo the first time with a bad shoulder. He went into that fight injured but only Floyd fans seem to see it as a great accomplishment that he could even fight. Bring up the second fight and it is like it didn't happen.
Same with Roy Jones when he beat Hopkins with one good hand.

If it is at 140, most will just say, "So what, he wasn't a big fighter anyway."

Look at the discussion with division weight vs. fight-time weight. How many actually care that the fighters are not actually fighting at the division number/weight?

great read

I've always liked Bobby D.'s character from the movie "Casino."
He was a betting man and because of that, he needed to know every detail before he placed a bet. Why? Because everything mattered.

benny you are by far one of the better poster on this site.
you, dlt and sometimes crillz are the only 3 posters i take time to read your whole post no manner how long. Because I know you guys put an effort in to back up your argument, and not just make general and blank statements.

I wish all of boxingscene was this way, and maybe then we could have civil discussions that could lead to census and answers.