(Corrected Poll) Would BHOP and ROY go through Calzaghe's record undefeated?!?

[Dan...]

How many eilte guys are there really though? Kessler performed better against Joe than some elite fighters like Tito or Winky did with BHop and no one questioned their place as elite fighters. beating a bunch of really good comp, which Kessler has, and dominating it is often a clue. It's a shame we live in this era; at a better time, fighters like Kessler, Joe, BHop etc. could have had series of fights instead of one-offs. Hell, if Gene Tunney had been judged based on the first Greb fight, he would have never gone on to beat Greb a bunch of times after taking an ass whooping.

Oh FFS, IT IS ABOUT WHO YOU HAVE FKN BEATEN!

Who is Kessler's best win? Anthony Mun-fkn-dine? Other notable wins? Beyer (Ottke Jnr.), Siaca, Andrade? If Wright or Tito had those as their best wins would they be considered elite? Of course they fkn wouldn't be. Seriously what a ridiculous post.

[Kris Silver]

Yeah but you see you cannot take Roy as he is now and put him against Kessler, say he would probably lose and therefore the people voting yes are wrong. Do you see why? Joe never went to heavy, Joe never fought Tarver. THis is the path Roy would have taken. He would (most likely) have been in much better shape to fight Kessler than would have been the case given what he had experienced in his career in the preceding years. That is the issue. You take Roy, put him in Joe's place right since the early 90s and see how he goes. I say he definately does not lose until BHop, and even then he could probably win that one too.

I think this comes down to how you'd see Roy without going to HW. I still think he'd be past prime enough to lose to Kessler in 2007. Personally I think it's kind to Roy to factor the HW thing in to too much of a degree, and it's entirely debatable as too how much is fair in a poll like this.

For instance, it's instantly pretty harsh to follow the same thinking for Joe in Roys resume because he doesn't have the athleticism to get to HW and would have had worse and more knock outs after wards. Then these kinds of polls start to look irrelevant with so many variables.

[The Hammer]

Mikkel Kessler would defeat Hopkins.

I hope that's his next fight.

[Verstyle]

Where is the both option

[crold1]

Oh FFS, IT IS ABOUT WHO YOU HAVE FKN BEATEN!

Who is Kessler's best win? Anthony Mun-fkn-dine? Other notable wins? Beyer (Ottke Jnr.), Siaca, Andrade? If Wright or Tito had those as their best wins would they be considered elite? Of course they fkn wouldn't be. Seriously what a ridiculous post.

You beat who is available and that was a strong run of the top ten in his class...he lost to a legitimately great fighter in a good fight where he got outdueled in the second half. If Kessler's two best foes/wins were equal to Winky's, you'd be noting how flawed the Wright-Tito/Shane wins are in equating greatness. Andrade and Mundine are both good, quality fighters and blowing them out by wide margins is the mark of a fighter closer to the elite level than average.

[Dan...]

You beat who is available and that was a strong run of the top ten in his class...he lost to a legitimately great fighter in a good fight where he got outdueled in the second half. If Kessler's two best foes/wins were equal to Winky's, you'd be noting how flawed the Wright-Tito/Shane wins are in equating greatness. Andrade and Mundine are both good, quality fighters and blowing them out by wide margins is the mark of a fighter closer to the elite level than average.

Kessler is closer to the elite level than average for certain, but you don't seem to understand what I am saying. I will try to break it down for you.

Kessler has been impressive in running through all but one of the top fighters at 168. The likes of Mundine, Siaca, Lucas, Beyer, Andrade are solid fighters. Not top class, but solid. Sure he looked good, however he has only been in the ring with a top class figher once, and he was comprehensively outclassed.

You commented, "Kessler performed better against Joe than some elite fighters like Tito or Winky did with BHop and no one questioned their place as elite fighters". Do you see how this is a ridiculous thing to say? YOu are basically implying that to question Kessler's place as an elite fighter after losing a competitve fight to Calzaghe is akin to questioning the status of Trinidad or Wright after their losses to BHop. You are basically disrgarding the level of competition they have faced and beaten. Kessler's best wins are against B+ fighters whilst Tito and Wright have beaten certified HOFers. DO you understand this?

[hookoutofhell]

You beat who is available and that was a strong run of the top ten in his class...he lost to a legitimately great fighter in a good fight where he got outdueled in the second half. If Kessler's two best foes/wins were equal to Winky's, you'd be noting how flawed the Wright-Tito/Shane wins are in equating greatness. Andrade and Mundine are both good, quality fighters and blowing them out by wide margins is the mark of a fighter closer to the elite level than average.

true its not necesarily who you beat but how you beat them - when kess fought fighters like mndine, beyer and andrade he looked more than a just a few notches above them. you could argue that he dominated them in a way that great fighters dominate contenders, in a way that JC dominated his opponents.

if hopkins fought kess tomorrow i would rate kess as being one of the top 3 biggest challenges that hopkins takes on (RJJ, JC then kess).
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BMW M30

[El Dominicano]

So would James Toney

[hookoutofhell]

Kessler is closer to the elite level than average for certain, but you don't seem to understand what I am saying. I will try to break it down for you.

Kessler has been impressive in running through all but one of the top fighters at 168. The likes of Mundine, Siaca, Lucas, Beyer, Andrade are solid fighters. Not top class, but solid. Sure he looked good, however he has only been in the ring with a top class figher once, and he was comprehensively outclassed.

You commented, "Kessler performed better against Joe than some elite fighters like Tito or Winky did with BHop and no one questioned their place as elite fighters". Do you see how this is a ridiculous thing to say? YOu are basically implying that to question Kessler's place as an elite fighter after losing a competitve fight to Calzaghe is akin to questioning the status of Trinidad or Wright after their losses to BHop. You are basically disrgarding the level of competition they have faced and beaten. Kessler's best wins are against B+ fighters whilst Tito and Wright have beaten certified HOFers. DO you understand this?

kess took on a fight with a p4p champion, a fighter who dominated his division, he did it at the time with a broken right hand and a less than perfect training camp.

he performed better in his loss than tito and wright did in their losses against b-hop as mentioned before by crold1. but this is where the double standards come into play b-hop took joe close as well, and made him work harder for the win yet his status as a p4p fighter didn't change in alot of people eyes. they still had him in the top 10 between no 5 and no 10.

now kess took joe very close as mentioned before with a less than perfect training camp but alot of people still refuse to recognize his status as being a legitimate contender for a top 10 p4p fighter slot.

if kess were to fight hopkins tomorrow - it would be one of hopkins harder fights. alot harder than fighting good but over rated fighters like tito and pavlik for sure, kess would probably be one of the strongest and most powerful fighters that bhop has been in a ring with.
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SEX TAPE

[crold1]

Kessler is closer to the elite level than average for certain, but you don't seem to understand what I am saying. I will try to break it down for you.

Kessler has been impressive in running through all but one of the top fighters at 168. The likes of Mundine, Siaca, Lucas, Beyer, Andrade are solid fighters. Not top class, but solid. Sure he looked good, however he has only been in the ring with a top class figher once, and he was comprehensively outclassed.

You commented, "Kessler performed better against Joe than some elite fighters like Tito or Winky did with BHop and no one questioned their place as elite fighters". Do you see how this is a ridiculous thing to say? YOu are basically implying that to question Kessler's place as an elite fighter after losing a competitve fight to Calzaghe is akin to questioning the status of Trinidad or Wright after their losses to BHop. You are basically disrgarding the level of competition they have faced and beaten. Kessler's best wins are against B+ fighters whilst Tito and Wright have beaten certified HOFers. DO you understand this?

I know what you're saying, but I think people put sometimes just a little (not a lot) too much stock in names without looking at context. The only HOFers Wright beat were Tito, one fight off a long retirement, and Mosley at the end of the worst run of his career (from Forrest I through Winky). Mosley was sluggish through most of that run, hardly through combos, and in Wright may have been downcycling based on other evidence. Tito beat two HOFers as well, Pea and Oscar. Pea was 35 and coming off a coke suspension. DLH? I thought Tito won by a point but...

And none of this is to say Tito isn't greater than Kessler. He is and his resume is strong all over and stronger than Kessler's based on a deep pool of really good wins. I guess what I'm getting at is the line between 'elite' and just good isn't that wide. It was the difference for Bute against Andrade and Kess against the same for instance (Bute is still quite good even with the storm of BS in that fight).