Warren Say Joe Calzaghe Should Have Fought Pavlik

[hammerhiem]

Can you imaging if Mayweather did that with Castillo or Pacquiao with Marquez.

Mayweather was accused of ducking Cotto and countless others, and i have no doubt pac will have the same accusation at some point if he hasn't already.

[egodfather]

You mean like Hopkins vs

Roy Richie
Wendell Hall
Melvin Winn
Lupe Aquilo
Segundo Mercado x2
Steve Frank
Joe Lipsey
William Bo James
John David Jackson

Yeah, all fighters have their easy fights, of course, but they also have their career defining fights. It's better to beat a somebody rather than a bobody and even though Hopkins has hid his share of easy fights he also has a KO win over a 37-0 Glen Johnson (a guy who Calzaghe ducked twice), he also a KO win over middle-weight champion Felix Trinidad who was pound-for-pound the best at the time, he also has a dominating win over Tarver after jumping from 160 to 175 - 2 weight divisions, he also has a win over Pavlik (another fighter Calzaghe ducked), he knocked Oscar De La Hoya who was a weight class below him for several years, he beat Winky at 170 - Joe has talked about fighting Winky at 168 for yearrrrs, I'm sure it would've been ok with the Brits for Joe to beat him at 168 but somehow Hopkins gets criticism for a win over Winky at 170 - 2lbs above 168. No way Joe beats Winky. Winky hits harder according to Hopkins and unlike Joe, Winky actually has one of the best defences in boxing. Man, the list goes on. The fights Hopkins "lost" could've went either way, hence one his losses to Taylor was split as was the Calzaghe fight.

[egodfather]

'm bored of the same old British propaganda, the British flag syndrome is difficult to cure. Look, Calzaghe isn't a bum. It's not that he can't fight. It's not that he doesn't have the heart. It's more about his management, he has been well managed and protected. At 45-0 he is yet to have his first PPV fight and he will have made more money with Hopkins than he has in his career so far. Personally, I don't like his style, he slaps. But each to their own. Calzaghe could've easily went to America 5 years ago, he chose not to. If you accept his fear of flying as a valid reason then so be it but his shoulder-shrugging casualness will eventually catch up with him as the knowledgeable fans who don't suffer from the British flag syndrome are fully aware of the situation.

All great fighters have had their share of easy fights but they've also had their career defining fights. His fans, completely oblivious to the fact that Calzaghe waited 9 years to get the unification fights, seem to think Lacy and/or Kessler are career defining fights when neither were/are great/proven. I think it's important to make the distinction between the facts and the opinions. Lacy had around 20 pro fights, he won the vacant title and his biggest wins were Omar Sheika who is currently at 28-8-0, that in itself was a very close fight and one in which Lacy was badly hurt, not a good performance. Scott Pemberton is the second name Lacy took down, Pemberton is trying to make a comeback after his KO loss to Peter Manfredo Jr. Erm, apart from that I can't really think of what Lacy actually did. Calzaghe was the underdog because the UK bookmakers didn't have any confidence in him, he was beating "doughnuts" as Steve Bunce reported in The Telegraph.

As for Kessler, he beat Beyer and Siaca for his titles and his other good win was over Anthony Mundine. Good performance from both Calzaghe and Kessler and props to Joe for beating a younger/stronger fighter but Kessler is unproven, he wasn't an established champion and he hadn't mixed it with the best. What Kessler will go on to achieve remains to be seen but Taylor beats him in my opinion - better than Calzaghe did. I had Calzaghe beating Kessler by 115-113, same as the BBC. I don't like/appreciate Calzaghe's pitter patter but he outworked Kessler.

As has been said already, these debates will go on and on and I'm bored of the same anti-American nonsense from Calzaghe's fans. Joe waited too long, not only for Roy Jones Jr., Bernard Hopkins, Antonion Tarver & Winky Wright to hit their 40s but also for the unification fights, he waited 9 years for them - in a very weak division where Sven Ottke was around the corner also beating bum after bum.

I think people are going to have to accept the fact that if you want the best then you go to the best. Mayweather V Hatton - one of the biggest fights in welter-weight history wouldn't have happened if Hatton wasn't willing to go to the best. Calzaghe could have went to America and challenged Roy Jones Jr., he didn't. The history of "negotiations" and "offers" that Calzaghe and co. talk about are a joke. They offered Hopkins peanuts for a fight in Wales, this was at a time when Hopkins was the unified 160 champion coming out of a multi-million dollar fight with Tito Trinidad. They offered Taylor half of what he was netting in America for a fight in Calzaghe's backyard at a higher weight class. The list goes on. They offered Pavlik a fight when Pavlik wasn't known to the boxing world, Pavlik wasn't evern a top 10 contender if indeed what Calzaghe says is true, lies if you ask me, as Pavlik has already said.

Calzaghe doesn't do himself any favours. Joe was quick to dismiss Roy Jones Jr. in his book because he accepted the fact that Roy was old, shot and past his best. Against his own words, he has decided to fight Roy Jones Jr. This comes at a time when the unified champion at 160 was willing to move up and fight Joe Calzaghe for 40% of the purse as Warren has just revealed.

So what if Calzaghe beat a few former world champions along the way to come to 45-0 padded record. Amir Khan also beat a former world champion a few months back, get the drift?

I don't expect Calzaghe's fans to address my points, then never do, they can't. They just come up with meaningless statistics with the 21 defenses rubbish and undefeated for several years nonsense (refer to Ottke & Dariusz M). I'm just bored of the same old British propaganda. Calzaghe isn't a great, he never will be.

[S A M U R A I]

he beat Winky at 170 - Joe has talked about fighting Winky at 168 for yearrrrs, I'm sure it would've been ok with the Brits for Joe to beat him at 168 but somehow Hopkins gets criticism for a win over Winky at 170 - 2lbs above 168. No way Joe beats Winky. Winky hits harder according to Hopkins and unlike Joe, Winky actually has one of the best defences in boxing. Man, the list goes on. The fights Hopkins "lost" could've went either way, hence one his losses to Taylor was split as was the Calzaghe fight.

Winky was a blown-up light middleweight. He'd only had 3 fights at middleweight before moving up to 170 to fight Hopkins. Tito was also a smaller man, with all his best work coming at Welterweight. When he stepped up to around 160 he started getting beaten.

Small men with big names.

It's like Pavlik dominated at 160 because he's big. He can bully opponents into corners and smack the **** out of them. As soon as he steps up to 166 (Taylor 2) it became competitive. At 170 to fight Hopkins, he had no hope.

Smaller man with a big name.

Calzaghe fought legit super middles. Smaller names, sure, but at least he was beating guys his own size.



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[hammerhiem]

As has been said already, these debates will go on and on and I'm bored of the same anti-American nonsense from Calzaghe's fans.

What have I said in this debate thats Anti American?

I Give credit to joe because he beat a classy American in Hopkins who In my opinion is not shot.

I don't expect Calzaghe's fans to address my points, then never do, they can't.

Address mine then, who at SMW didn't Calzaghe beat during his 10 year unbeaten spell? Who should he have fought at SMW but didn't? Did a amazing American SMW fly under the radar when I wasn't looking or something?

Don't give me this whiney "he didn't move up" bollocks, he's a SMW not a LHW or Cruiser, you only move up or down when you reach the end of you career or you end up fighting people way to big for you and end up as a never was and out of the game broke.

Quit blaming the fighter because of the weakness of his division it not his fault.

[egodfather]

Winky was a blown-up light middleweight. He'd only had 3 fights at middleweight before moving up to 170 to fight Hopkins. Tito was also a smaller man, with all his best work coming at Welterweight. When he stepped up to around 160 he started getting beaten.

Small men with big names.

It's like Pavlik dominated at 160 because he's big. He can bully opponents into corners and smack the **** out of them. As soon as he steps up to 166 (Taylor 2) it became competitive. At 170 to fight Hopkins, he had no hope.

Smaller man with a big name.

Calzaghe fought legit super middles. Smaller names, sure, but at least he was beating guys his own size.

What, like Manfredo, a career middle-weight? Like Hopkins, a blown-up middle? Evans Ashira, a career light middle? Chris Eubank, a weight drained light-heavy/cruiser at that point in his career? The list goes on. Trinidad was a champion at 160 - and pound for pound numero uno - no.1.
Trinidad knocked out Joppy in 4 rounds - Hopkins couldn't budge Joppy. Trinidad knocked out Mayorga in a few rounds, Mosley just about did it in the final seconds of their fight. You don't know ****. If Trinidad was a small man then Hopkins was a blown-up middle against Joe - and Joe lost.

[turnpike]

Excellent post for the prosecution if you like from egodfather (No.53)...and although i am a fan of Joe I can see exactly where you are coming from.

From my view point, i think Joe is a better boxer than his record shows and it is unfortunate that he didnt fight the bigger fights when he was younger...his wins against Kessler and Hopkins should be recognised and respected and many in the boxing game are aware of what a talent he was/is....the reality is that he may have ended up 43-2-0 or something like that and have ended up a HOF shoe in...instead he may end up 46-0-0 and retire undeafeted and less financially well off and subject to the endless what if's. I am not sure which in retrospect he would have chosen...his management is responsible for this as well.

For me personally I am just annoyed that I didnt get to see the Calzaghe V RJJ, Hopkins, Johnson, etc fights 8-10 years ago and wouldnt have to read silly posts (this one excluded obviously) on here every day about Calzaghe being a british hoax and all that nonsense...

[egodfather]

What have I said in this debate thats Anti American?

I Give credit to joe because he beat a classy American in Hopkins who In my opinion is not shot.Address mine then, who at SMW didn't Calzaghe beat during his 10 year unbeaten spell? Who should he have fought at SMW but didn't? Did a amazing American SMW fly under the radar when I wasn't looking or something?

Don't give me this whiney "he didn't move up" bollocks, he's a SMW not a LHW or Cruiser, you only move up or down when you reach the end of you career or you end up fighting people way to big for you and end up as a never was and out of the game broke.

Quit blaming the fighter because of the weakness of his division it not his fault.

Well as a matter of fact, Joe has said he could make 175 for the last 10 years and he was scheduled to move up 5 years ago but for some reason it didn't happen against the likes of Tarver & Gonzalez. Joe claims he is a light-heavy who boils down to 168. His words, not mine - read his book. Joe could've easily moved up - he chose to stay at the piss-poor weak super-middle division and beat bum after bum whilst Hopkins was knocking out 37-0 Glen Johnson, whilst Hopkins was jumping up 2 weight divisions to dominate Tarver, whilst Hopkins was dominating fighters that Calzaghe was running from like Pavlik, whilst Hopkins was fighting the pound for pound best fighter in the world in Felix Trinidad. Calzaghe has fought one pound-for-pound fighter in 45 fights - and he got a SD - FACT.

[egodfather]

I'm bored of the same old British propaganda, the British flag syndrome is difficult to cure. Look, Calzaghe isn't a bum. It's not that he can't fight. It's not that he doesn't have the heart. It's more about his management, he has been well managed and protected. At 45-0 he is yet to have his first PPV fight and he will have made more money with Hopkins than he has in his career so far. Personally, I don't like his style, he slaps. But each to their own. Calzaghe could've easily went to America 5 years ago, he chose not to. If you accept his fear of flying as a valid reason then so be it but his shoulder-shrugging casualness will eventually catch up with him as the knowledgeable fans who don't suffer from the British flag syndrome are fully aware of the situation.

All great fighters have had their share of easy fights but they've also had their career defining fights. His fans, completely oblivious to the fact that Calzaghe waited 9 years to get the unification fights, seem to think Lacy and/or Kessler are career defining fights when neither were/are great/proven. I think it's important to make the distinction between the facts and the opinions. Lacy had around 20 pro fights, he won the vacant title and his biggest wins were Omar Sheika who is currently at 28-8-0, that in itself was a very close fight and one in which Lacy was badly hurt, not a good performance. Scott Pemberton is the second name Lacy took down, Pemberton is trying to make a comeback after his KO loss to Peter Manfredo Jr. Erm, apart from that I can't really think of what Lacy actually did. Calzaghe was the underdog because the UK bookmakers didn't have any confidence in him, he was beating "doughnuts" as Steve Bunce reported in The Telegraph.

As for Kessler, he beat Beyer and Siaca for his titles and his other good win was over Anthony Mundine. Good performance from both Calzaghe and Kessler and props to Joe for beating a younger/stronger fighter but Kessler is unproven, he wasn't an established champion and he hadn't mixed it with the best. What Kessler will go on to achieve remains to be seen but Taylor beats him in my opinion - better than Calzaghe did. I had Calzaghe beating Kessler by 115-113, same as the BBC. I don't like/appreciate Calzaghe's pitter patter but he outworked Kessler.

As has been said already, these debates will go on and on and I'm bored of the same anti-American nonsense from Calzaghe's fans. Joe waited too long, not only for Roy Jones Jr., Bernard Hopkins, Antonion Tarver & Winky Wright to hit their 40s but also for the unification fights, he waited 9 years for them - in a very weak division where Sven Ottke was around the corner also beating bum after bum.

I think people are going to have to accept the fact that if you want the best then you go to the best. Mayweather V Hatton - one of the biggest fights in welter-weight history wouldn't have happened if Hatton wasn't willing to go to the best. Calzaghe could have went to America and challenged Roy Jones Jr., he didn't. The history of "negotiations" and "offers" that Calzaghe and co. talk about are a joke. They offered Hopkins peanuts for a fight in Wales, this was at a time when Hopkins was the unified 160 champion coming out of a multi-million dollar fight with Tito Trinidad. They offered Taylor half of what he was netting in America for a fight in Calzaghe's backyard at a higher weight class. The list goes on. They offered Pavlik a fight when Pavlik wasn't known to the boxing world, Pavlik wasn't evern a top 10 contender if indeed what Calzaghe says is true, lies if you ask me, as Pavlik has already said.

Calzaghe doesn't do himself any favours. Joe was quick to dismiss Roy Jones Jr. in his book because he accepted the fact that Roy was old, shot and past his best. Against his own words, he has decided to fight Roy Jones Jr. This comes at a time when the unified champion at 160 was willing to move up and fight Joe Calzaghe for 40% of the purse as Warren has just revealed.

So what if Calzaghe beat a few former world champions along the way to come to 45-0 padded record. Amir Khan also beat a former world champion a few months back, get the drift?

I don't expect Calzaghe's fans to address my points, then never do, they can't. They just come up with meaningless statistics with the 21 defenses rubbish and undefeated for several years nonsense (refer to Ottke & Dariusz M). I'm just bored of the same old British propaganda. Calzaghe isn't a great, he never will be.

[hammerhiem]

Egodfather: Go to bed you can continue disagreeing with us in the morning!