Prime Joe Calzaghe vs Prime Bernard Hopkins

[Kris Silver]

I said it would be a close fight. I just give BHop the edge given what i saw in their fight.

I didn't say you didn't bro, no beef. I think you've explained why you'd just favour Hopkins very well, and I've certainly factored it in. It's almost too close to call, but if the 2002 fight went ahead I think that was Hopkins best chance as his slickness, defence, countering were all very good at this point (not as much as post 40 mind) with everything else good too. However Joe was a pretty well rounded guy at this time too and had more power to keep Hops off him. I'd have to go back and watch some more fights and could well change my mind.

When do folk consider Hopkins to have been prime?

[Dan...]

I didn't say you didn't bro, no beef. I think you've explained why you'd just favour Hopkins very well, and I've certainly factored it in. It's almost too close to call, but if the 2002 fight went ahead I think that was Hopkins best chance as his slickness, defence, countering were all very good at this point (not as much as post 40 mind) with everything else good too. However Joe was a pretty well rounded guy at this time too and had more power to keep Hops off him. I'd have to go back and watch some more fights and could well change my mind.

When do folk consider Hopkins to have been prime?

When Hopkins' prime actually was is pretty much impossible to discuss. Who the fk knows. The man is just wierd.

[hookoutofhell]

It is not just BHop's stamina that has diminished over time. He doesn't have the power or the speed of hand or foot that he had at his best.

In relation to your second point, I am of the opinion that Hopkins was in far better shape for the fight against Pavlik than he was with Joe.

true he doesn't have the same mobility and handspeed or footspeed that he had in his prime but what he does have is better counterpunching skills, better ring generalship and thats what you would want against a volume puncher.

hopkins picks his shots better as well (when hes given time, notice how he abandoned the lead left hok vs Pavlik, switched to using the shoe shine with 3/4 punches as well in the middle rounds before gong back to using his right hand at the end), in fact he is alot like james toney. iv always said that prime JC loses to a pime toney.

so in many ways as Hopkins has gotten older he has become more and more of a stylistic nightmare for Joe, infact the more i think about it the more i think he always knew that he would have a better chance of defeating joe in his later years. it woudn't surprise me if he did plan it out all along.

as for the pavlik and Jc fight and b-hops condition - only b-hop knows the truth to that but iv got a funny feeling that we will all know what he is going to say. no-one seemed to be saying at the weigh in that b-hop looked a little out of sorts it was just when he lost which seems a bit too convenient for me.
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[hookoutofhell]

Hopkins was 40 years old when Taylor fought him, How the hell could he of been in his prime or near it??, His prime ended around 2003 and he became more defensive and threw less. Hopkins would of beat Taylor had he just simply threw more punches. Hopkins in his prime was still slick, very good defensively, good workrate and was effective coming forward and on the backfoot.

Calzaghe's lack of defense would be perfect for Hopkins crisp accurate combinations and counters. Calzaghe likes to impose his will on his opponent but against a prime b-hop his aggression would be ineffective as Hopkins would follow up with accurate counters and kept Calzaghe at bay.

You need to watch Hopkins performances against Echols and Johnson to see what a prime Hopkins actually is.

your mssing the point if Taylor a fighter who is not as good as calzaghe followed a certain gameplan and managed to beat Hopkins when Hopkins was fairly close to his prime then imagine what Joe who is a better fighter would do to Hopkins.

Yes i will admit that the debate we'r having is about Hopkins when he was at his best but when he was at his best he hadless of the counterpunching skills, less of the defensive acumen and was less of james toney fighter.

yes calzaghe doesn't have a great defense but when you have an offense like his do you really need to concentrate that hard on defense. berard proabably would counter alot of Jc's shots but rmeber joe was alot faster than the joe we see today, and imo becaue of speed he would have been slightly more accurate.
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[hammerhiem]

I would say Hopkins By 2 maybe 3 rounds, he's a consumate counterpuncher and the reason Cal beat him was because Bhop tired late in the fight, It would be a good fight prime i think because Bhop wouldn't be so negative.

that said I don't buy the Idea that Cal would fade late in the fight, he's fought loads of 12 rounders and to my knowledge has never looked fatigued.

[hookoutofhell]

I don't think he was any less fit for Calzaghe than Pavlik just the opponents and styles made it seem that way. Possibly also the weight.

I agree with the first sentence, but maintain that those weren't his best attributes against style like Calzaghe, if he has one. Reading a few of the posts I'm left thinking a lot of folk are probably considering this based on different ages of Hops as his so called prime. When was his prime?

Some of his best and most impressive wins were post 40 and he looked pretty damn active and good. Whose to say a lot of the changes weren't also the new weight? The guys a freak and also unique in that he'd also receive one of the least consensuses of when his prime really was.

A Hopkins of just say 2001 when he'd just had one of his best performance in beating Trinidad, he was aged about 36. This is a late physical prime by most standards but given his strongest most unique strengths developing to be defence, slick ness and countering, mixed with good accuracy and offence when the time was right, I think he was probably of most threat to Joe then. However, in 2002 Hopkins turned the fight down effectively by doing the deal then doubling the price.

That would have been a close fight. However, Calzaghe was having some good offensive performances at this time with the occasional bad one too, but using more power too. If Calzaghe protects his belt and reign, doesn't take risks, then why risk it against a guy he and Warren think he'd lose to? By this point he was pretty mature and clever about things. His game plan, tactics and adaptability skills were coming into there own by this point aswell. So it's impossible to tell for sure how that would have gone. I'd probably just favour a Calzaghe decision as I think he'd find a way and even with a knock down there's no way it's KOing him or hindering him much, if anything the contrary and he was hurting people at that time.

good post about, you seem to know alot of Jc's style and how he has used it as always.

personally i think Hopkins prime was quite late remember he started the professional game when he was quite old so probably had less wear and tear thab other fighters. id say his prime probably was around the tito fight he was physically strong and still hadalot his physical igfts but at the time he was also becoming more and more developed in terms of his defensive acumen, counterpunching and ring smarts.

also it wouldn't surprise me if hopkins wanted the fight later on his career, hes slowly developed into a sltylistic nightmare for Joe as hes got older, bernard has turned from being the boxer/brawler to being more of a james toney-esque fighter. now if you were to ask most JC fans who would a prime JC struggle with i think it would be james toney.

i think bernard knew when they did fight that his style is made for zaghe. it takes me back to the comments he made after defeating winky wright that he was looking to take on JC, theminute i heard him say it i knew there was something ticking away in old Nards skull. Nard had called out tarver before as well, in the build up to that fight he said that he saw something that he thought he might be able to exploit, when he called out Joe i think he sw something as well, that he could exploit but i dont think that he banked on Joe's own ring smarts to win him the fight.

in short imo bernard ducked out of the fight with JC in 2002 becausehe knew his style wasn't suited to JC. however as he got older he realized he had a better chance and then began to chase the fight with Jc.

maybe it does sound a bit far fetched, but Hopkins is renowned as being a wily old vet who calculates everything.
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[chillin8]

Calzaghe had to wait until B-Hop was 43 in order to compete with him...B-hop wins by ko (prime)

[hookoutofhell]

Calzaghe had to wait until B-Hop was 43 in order to compete with him...B-hop wins by ko (prime)

yep totally agree with you, thats why JC after finding that he had a hard time making weight went up two weight divisions (skipping a dominant champions weigh class along the way, lets not say that he might have actually ducked him) and and thats why in 2002 JC turned up in negotiations after everything had been agreed by word and suddenly decided that he wanted double the money.....

wait am i talking about someone else here?
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[them_apples]

B-Hop would win a wide decision and get a few knock downs or even a late ko.

Even B-hops performance against Pavlik was nothing compared to his old days. I was rewatching Tito vs Bernard and man even at 39 he had a solid work rate and incredible accuracy.

Calzaghe doesn't belong in the same league, especailly when I find it hard to give him wins for touching.

I expect everyone to say Jones style was made for Calzaghe to when he loses to him. There is simply no way Hopkins loses to Calzaghe in his prime, you can be as delusional as you want. It's like saying Morrison schools Prime Foreman.

This is ******ed, Calzaghe just barely beats Hopkins at 43, yet he somehow has Bernards number? The fight could have gone ether way, only with Bernard gassing. How can anyone pick Calzaghe??

[them_apples]

yep totally agree with you, thats why JC after finding that he had a hard time making weight went up two weight divisions (skipping a dominant champions weigh class along the way, lets not say that he might have actually ducked him) and and thats why in 2002 JC turned up in negotiations after everything had been agreed by word and suddenly decided that he wanted double the money.....

wait am i talking about someone else here?

LOL, Hopkins ducking Calzaghe? Hopkins is the least likely to duck someone. If he was ducking..why would he call Calzaghe out when he was 43 years old?