I think Jermain Taylor has a brighter future than Kelly Pavlik

[Reggie Miller]

Kelly looses once and you formulate this opinion..

Man, this forum is full of ****in idiots..

Its a loss bro.. You mofos hop off the bandwagon quick...

co-sign.

[Clegg]

Kelly looses once and you formulate this opinion..

Man, this forum is full of ****in idiots..

Its a loss bro.. You mofos hop off the bandwagon quick...

Show me when I was ever on the Pavlik bandwagon.

Before this fight, I picked Abraham, Kessler and Calzaghe to beat him. Last night I posted that Pav-Hop was a 50/50 fight, but that I was leaning towards Hopkins.

Do I have to go and dig up my posts from months ago where I said that Taylor's stock would rise in the future? Where I explained that, IMO, he had been unfortunate in that he'd fought Hopkins, Wright, and Spinks, who would make any 160 guy look bad, and Pavlik, who was a bad style matchup for him.

How about you do what I did: answer the question and explain the reasoning behind it rather than whining about me.

I remember trying to debate you a few times before and not getting much in the way of an impressive reply. But hey, give it another try, let's see who the '****in idiot' really is.

[Clegg]

It depends on how Taylor does at 168, Pavlik does look somewhat sloppy with the extra weight but I think he would still have a good chance of people most of the fighters at 160-168.

And styles make fights.

I agree Silencers, and style is part of what I base my view on.

For example against Kessler, Pavlik would be up against someone who was faster and stronger. His style makes that fight a hard task, because he comes forward and usually overpowers people. Taylor, on the other hand, has good hand speed and moves around the ring a lot more. Obviously he's not the same as Calzaghe, but those two attributes are part of why Calzaghe beat Kessler, and so I think Taylor would certainly win rounds against MK and the fight would go to the scorecards.

If JT's stamina holds up for 12 rounds, I think he can outwork Abraham. Can Pavlik? Yes, but I think he'd take a lot of punches trying to do so, and end up losing by KO. Abraham has a good defence, good timing, chin, and stamina, and this combined with his power is why I don't see Pavlik KOing him, and why I think AA would take a lot of punches on his gloves and then time a counter punch in the later rounds, by which time Pavlik has less snap and speed to his punches and is easier to hit. Maybe the same thing happens to JT, but his footwork and movement make it less likely IMO.

I think that Taylor's superior skills, movement and speed make it more likely that he's beat the guys at 160-168. I think he showed a lot of improvement in the rematch, he avoided the ropes and a lot better and he had some good rounds where he was consistently landing.

This is all just my opinion, and of course I could turn out to be 100% wrong, just explaining my reasons

[Murray]

For Pavlik there's the trip back to 160, where potential opponents are Arthur Abraham, Winky, and Paul Williams, or a bunch of journeymen mandatories.

I think that Abraham beats him. I don't see Winky fighting again (and I'm not sure Pavlik gets past him anyway). The Williams fight is possible, but that's about the one impressive win I see in his near future.

For Jermain Taylor there is the upcoming fight against Lacy. I expect him to look very good and get a lot of praise for a shutout victory. After that there are title fights against Froch (who has low hands and is slower than JT) and Kessler.

Fair enough, none of those guys are superstars, but an impressive win on HBO vs a former champion, winning a belt from an undefeated KO artist, and then a unification fight is something that gives a career a pretty big boost.

A realistic possibility is JT unifying at 168 with impressive victories over Lacy, Froch/Pascal and Kessler, before stepping to 175 for big money matchups.

I think JT will revitalize his career, and has more chance of getting a fight with Roy Jones, Joe Calzaghe or Bernard Hopkins than Pavlik does.

I give Taylor a better chance against Kessler, Calzaghe, Hopkins, Dawson...maybe not Jones, but that's about it.

Taylor will do fine and so will Palvlik. Just because Taylor narrowly beat Hopkins doesnt mean he is now suddenly better than Kelly

Lets see how he does vs Bernard at 170. Bhop now has made a case for his vengeance.

[Haterfree]

Taylor will never be heard from again after Lacy finishes him next month.

[Clegg]

Taylor will do fine and so will Palvlik. Just because Taylor narrowly beat Hopkins doesnt mean he is now suddenly better than Kelly

Lets see how he does vs Bernard at 170. Bhop now has made a case for his vengeance.

I agree that Taylor>Hopkins doesn't mean that Taylor>Pavlik. I didn't even mention their previous fight in my post.

[Silencers]

I agree Silencers, and style is part of what I base my view on.

For example against Kessler, Pavlik would be up against someone who was faster and stronger. His style makes that fight a hard task, because he comes forward and usually overpowers people. Taylor, on the other hand, has good hand speed and moves around the ring a lot more. Obviously he's not the same as Calzaghe, but those two attributes are part of why Calzaghe beat Kessler, and so I think Taylor would certainly win rounds against MK and the fight would go to the scorecards.

If JT's stamina holds up for 12 rounds, I think he can outwork Abraham. Can Pavlik? Yes, but I think he'd take a lot of punches trying to do so, and end up losing by KO. Abraham has a good defence, good timing, chin, and stamina, and this combined with his power is why I don't see Pavlik KOing him, and why I think AA would take a lot of punches on his gloves and then time a counter punch in the later rounds, by which time Pavlik has less snap and speed to his punches and is easier to hit. Maybe the same thing happens to JT, but his footwork and movement make it less likely IMO.

I think that Taylor's superior skills, movement and speed make it more likely that he's beat the guys at 160-168. I think he showed a lot of improvement in the rematch, he avoided the ropes and a lot better and he had some good rounds where he was consistently landing.

This is all just my opinion, and of course I could turn out to be 100% wrong, just explaining my reasons

I actually disagree about Kessler, Kessler style would have less problems with Taylor IMO, Taylor has a low workrate, as you said, gets pushed back relatively easily which would compliment Kessler's jab and allow him to establish it, Kessler doesn't his best work when he steps forward behind the jab or stays still and pops the jab which Taylor would allow him to do IMO, Taylor is not a guy that come forward which is the style that would give Kessler the most problems IMO. I thought the way Calzaghe beat Kessler was by applying educated pressure and also by pushing Kessler back, which is what Pavlik does best, he pushes his opponents back with his jab, Kessler is not nearly as good going backwards and Kessler can sometimes leave himself open for right hands over the top of his jab because he brings it back in low sometimes which would also play into Pavlik's hands, Kessler also isn't a mover or a guy who takes little steps to the side like a Hopkins or a Taylor in the second fight, which would again help Pavlik.

Again, I disagree. The way to fight Pavlik is to move around so that he can't set his feet or to get his feet crossed up so that he can't get off, Abraham doesn't do that, he either stands in front of his opponents with a high guard or come forward behind his high guard which is definitely not the way to fight Pavlik, and I'm not even sure if the high guard works against Pavlik because of how strong his straight right hand is, it could just bust through that guard of Abraham's. And Abraham is an inactive fighter at 160, sometimes he just stands there with his high guard letting his opponents punch away, not a good strategy against Pavlik because we know he can throw 70-80 hard punches a round for 12 rounds, Taylor's workrate has steadily declined over the years, it's a mystery to me as to why that is but it is what it is.

Taylor had superior fundamentals but that isn't the only thing that wins fights, his workrate is low, he still telegraphs his right hand when he throws it and still drops his left hand sometimes although it is improving.

Your opinion are valid and you make some good points, we won't really know what will happen unless these fights do come off, we can only speculate about these things until then.

[MELLY-MEL...]

I actually disagree about Kessler, Kessler style would have less problems with Taylor IMO, Taylor has a low workrate, as you said, gets pushed back relatively easily which would compliment Kessler's jab and allow him to establish it, Kessler doesn't his best work when he steps forward behind the jab or stays still and pops the jab which Taylor would allow him to do IMO, Taylor is not a guy that come forward which is the style that would give Kessler the most problems IMO. I thought the way Calzaghe beat Kessler was by applying educated pressure and also by pushing Kessler back, which is what Pavlik does best, he pushes his opponents back with his jab, Kessler is not nearly as good going backwards and Kessler can sometimes leave himself open for right hands over the top of his jab because he brings it back in low sometimes which would also play into Pavlik's hands, Kessler also isn't a mover or a guy who takes little steps to the side like a Hopkins or a Taylor in the second fight, which would again help Pavlik.

Again, I disagree. The way to fight Pavlik is to move around so that he can't set his feet or to get his feet crossed up so that he can't get off, Abraham doesn't do that, he either stands in front of his opponents with a high guard or come forward behind his high guard which is definitely not the way to fight Pavlik, and I'm not even sure if the high guard works against Pavlik because of how strong his straight right hand is, it could just bust through that guard of Abraham's. And Abraham is an inactive fighter at 160, sometimes he just stands there with his high guard letting his opponents punch away, not a good strategy against Pavlik because we know he can throw 70-80 hard punches a round for 12 rounds, Taylor's workrate has steadily declined over the years, it's a mystery to me as to why that is but it is what it is.

Taylor had superior fundamentals but that isn't the only thing that wins fights, his workrate is low, he still telegraphs his right hand when he throws it and still drops his left hand sometimes although it is improving.

Your opinion are valid and you make some good points, we won't really know what will happen unless these fights do come off, we can only speculate about these things until then.

very good post man, k sent!

[KJB]

I still believe in Kelly. Losses happen, he is still the best MW in the world today, and 26 years old, he will rebound.
Although I could see Taylor doing great things at 168, he just needs to live up to himself.

[Clegg]

I actually disagree about Kessler, Kessler style would have less problems with Taylor IMO, Taylor has a low workrate, as you said, gets pushed back relatively easily which would compliment Kessler's jab and allow him to establish it, Kessler doesn't his best work when he steps forward behind the jab or stays still and pops the jab which Taylor would allow him to do IMO, Taylor is not a guy that come forward which is the style that would give Kessler the most problems IMO. I thought the way Calzaghe beat Kessler was by applying educated pressure and also by pushing Kessler back, which is what Pavlik does best, he pushes his opponents back with his jab, Kessler is not nearly as good going backwards and Kessler can sometimes leave himself open for right hands over the top of his jab because he brings it back in low sometimes which would also play into Pavlik's hands, Kessler also isn't a mover or a guy who takes little steps to the side like a Hopkins or a Taylor in the second fight, which would again help Pavlik.

Perhaps you are right about a Taylor-Kessler matchup.

I agree with you about why Calzaghe beat Kessler, however I think the key word is 'educated'. I think that Pavlik's pressure would be simplistic, and in a situation where you have a simplistic pressure fighter, I always feel that the physical strength and size of his opponent is a big factor.

If Kessler decides to go forward and beat Pavlik at his own game, I think his superior speed and skill would allow him to land more punches and perhaps break Pavlik down.

I also think that Kessler showed in the Andrade fight that he can continually move around the ring, throwing a lot of punches for 12 full rounds against a come-forward boxer with a basic style. I know Pavlik is better than Andrade, but the ability Kessler showed in that fight is why I think he could outbox and counterpunch Pavlik to a points win.

One thing I like about Calzaghe is how he'll throw punches, sidestep, throw again etc. I cannot think of a time when Pavlik has done this impressively. Obviously he has moved to the side in fights, but only in response to his opponent's movement, rather than as part of an attempt to create angles or make it harder for the opponent to land. He comes forward while punching, but he doesn't have much lateral movement and so I don't see his pressure being anywhere that effective.

Again, I disagree. The way to fight Pavlik is to move around so that he can't set his feet or to get his feet crossed up so that he can't get off, Abraham doesn't do that, he either stands in front of his opponents with a high guard or come forward behind his high guard which is definitely not the way to fight Pavlik, and I'm not even sure if the high guard works against Pavlik because of how strong his straight right hand is, it could just bust through that guard of Abraham's. And Abraham is an inactive fighter at 160, sometimes he just stands there with his high guard letting his opponents punch away, not a good strategy against Pavlik because we know he can throw 70-80 hard punches a round for 12 rounds

I agree on this, except that I think Abraham would land enough to end it within the distance. I think he would lose rounds before that, but I don't think that he would be hurt or in trouble at any point. Abraham has shown before that he can patiently wait for the perfect moment to open up, and I think that against Pavlik he would have several opportunities.

I guess the difference is that I see Pavlik winning rounds but getting caught, but I see Taylor winning rounds (perhaps not enough to win the fight) but staying out of trouble. A lot would depend upon his stamina, I suppose.

Taylor had superior fundamentals but that isn't the only thing that wins fights, his workrate is low, he still telegraphs his right hand when he throws it and still drops his left hand sometimes although it is improving.

Your opinion are valid and you make some good points, we won't really know what will happen unless these fights do come off, we can only speculate about these things until then.

Thanks, same to you. I got my Tarver-Dawson pick wrong and changed my mind about Pav-Hop about 10 times before it started, so I'm always open to the possibility that I've overlooked something important.