Why is Jack Johnson a top ten heavyweight?

[ferocity]

ok, again, yes Johnson did fight like Ruiz. he clinched a LOT. that was the style back then, I understand. but thats the way he was, and thats all there is to it. the point still stands.

and again, I dont care that he was the first black heavyweight champ. that doesnt mean anything to me. Ruiz was the first hispanic champ. that doesnt mean anything to me either.

and apparently he was beating up everyone, since he got draws in two of his title defences, so I have a hard time believing he was really THAT dominant.

and again, Im going to name 10 heavyweights
-Ali
-Joe Louis
-Larry Holmes
-George Foreman
-Sonny Liston
-Rocky Marciano
-Ezzard Charles
-Evander Holyfield
-Lennox Lewis
-Joe Frazier

if Johnson deserves to be in the top ten, he needs to be better than one of them. compare their records, and then we can actually discuss something. Johnson was not a bad fighter at all. dont get me mixed up. All Im saying is top ten. thats it. in fact, hes just outside the top ten. but not in it.

You don't get it. Jack Johnson beat a lot of good fighters. He had a draw, i'll have to look that up and see to which fighter and where in time did the draw happen.

Not, only did he beat a lot of good fighter, he was ahead of his time. Look at Johsons record, if you don't recognize a lot of good fighter then thats your mistake.


In that list you wrote i'd put a Jack Johnson ahead of some of the fighters you mentioned.

And you want to talk holding, lmfao, i wont stop down that low and talk about other GREAT fighters that have done the same, some that you mentioned in you list of fighters. Back then in that era of boxing, holding was more allowed, proably because Boxing was still semi-new to America, boxing a sport taken from Europe.

What i advise you do is read some articles and books on Jack Johnson and see some of his documentaries that are about him there are more then one.

[ferocity]

I just noticed Jim Jefferies voted no.,

[Steak]

You don't get it. Jack Johnson beat a lot of good fighters. He had a draw, i'll have to look that up and see to which fighter and where in time did the draw happen.

Not, only did he beat a lot of good fighter, he was ahead of his time. Look at Johsons record, if you don't recognize a lot of good fighter then thats your mistake.


In that list you wrote i'd put a Jack Johnson ahead of some of the fighters you mentioned.

And you want to talk holding, lmfao, i wont stop down that low and talk about other GREAT fighters that have done the same, some that you mentioned in you list of fighters. Back then in that era of boxing, holding was more allowed, proably because Boxing was still semi-new to America, boxing a sport taken from Europe.

What i advise you do is read some articles and books on Jack Johnson and see some of his documentaries that are about him there are more then one.

Johnson held a lot more than any fighter on that list. but that doesnt matter. his style does not detract from his career. it never should.

please let me know what fighters Johnson was more accomplished than from that list, and why. that we can actually discuss, otherwise wed just end up going back and forth without really saying anything, haha.

[ferocity]

Ali, Louis, Charles and probably Lewis(cause of size) would be the only fighters i'd say that were better then him. But if anybody says Jack Johson was better then any of these 3, i'd have no problems with that.

[Steak]

Ali, Louis, Charles and probably Lewis(cause of size) would be the only fighters i'd say that were better then him. But if anybody says Jack Johson was better then any of these 3, i'd have no problems with that.

Did Johnson ever have a win as good as a win over Ali?(Frazier)
Or a win as good as Frazier?(Foreman)
Or wins over a faded Louis, Charles, Walcott?(Marciano)
Or dominant wins over Floyd Patterson?(Liston)
Or wins over Tyson and Bowe?(Holyfield)
And Holmes just had a ridiculously long and successful career.

did Johnson ever have wins as good as the ones mentioned above? and its not like these guys were one and done, they had full successful careers.

[ferocity]

Did Johnson ever have a win as good as a win over Ali?(Frazier)
Or a win as good as Frazier?(Foreman)
Or wins over a faded Louis, Charles, Walcott?(Marciano)
Or dominant wins over Floyd Patterson?(Liston)
Or wins over Tyson and Bowe?(Holyfield)
And Holmes just had a ridiculously long and successful career.

did Johnson ever have wins as good as the ones mentioned above? and its not like these guys were one and done, they had full successful careers.

I thought about putting Holmes in, wont argue that you did.

Since you mentioned why Jack Johnson did have "wins over a faded Louis, Chavez or Wlacott." Im going to ask that you do some more research as to why those fights weren't possable for Jack Johnson before i continue.

[JAB5239]

Did Johnson ever have a win as good as a win over Ali?(Frazier)
Or a win as good as Frazier?(Foreman)
Or wins over a faded Louis, Charles, Walcott?(Marciano)
Or dominant wins over Floyd Patterson?(Liston)
Or wins over Tyson and Bowe?(Holyfield)
And Holmes just had a ridiculously long and successful career.

did Johnson ever have wins as good as the ones mentioned above? and its not like these guys were one and done, they had full successful careers.

Johnson did have huge wins over greats like McVea, Jeanette, Langford, Young Peter Jackson, Denver Ed Martin and Klon***e Haynes. All were excellent black fighters who were never afforded their shot at the "world" heavyweight championship either, tet had fought each other numorous times and for the "colored" heavyweight championship in which Jophnson proved his superiority.

[Steak]

I thought about putting Holmes in, wont argue that you did.

Since you mentioned why Jack Johnson did have "wins over a faded Louis, Chavez or Walcott." Im going to ask that you do some more research as to why those fights weren't possable for Jack Johnson before i continue.

wait, what? I said Marciano had those wins. and then I asked if Johnson had wins over that level of opposition, not those specific fighters. what are you trying to say?

[Steak]

Johnson did have huge wins over greats like McVea, Jeanette, Langford, Young Peter Jackson, Denver Ed Martin and Klon***e Haynes. All were excellent black fighters who were never afforded their shot at the "world" heavyweight championship either, tet had fought each other numorous times and for the "colored" heavyweight championship in which Jophnson proved his superiority.

right, and theyre good wins, Im not disagreeing with that at all...but are those wins as good or better than the top wins of those other fighters, thats my question.

[JAB5239]

right, and theyre good wins, Im not disagreeing with that at all...but are those wins as good or better than the top wins of those other fighters, thats my question.

Combine those wins with his wins over quality "white" opposition and I would have to say yes. combine that yet again with the fact that he was always under immense pressure from being detested by the majority, and many black as well, and regular death threats, which I would imagine during that period would be very hard for a black man to ignore, and the guy was great. His overall record is as good or better than bothy Dempsey and Marciano in my opinion. Liston and Holyfield as well and possibly Holmes if I took the time to disect they're respective careers. In my opinion he ranks right up there with the all time greats at heavy AND fought under harsher conditions. Jmo.