Muhammad Ali- Was he the greatest heavyweight?

[RockyMarcianofan00]

what do u mean
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[speed_devil]

what do u mean

What do you mean, what do i mean read the other posts

[butterfly1964]

ali is the greatest, everyone knows he's the greatest, and anyone who doesn't agree is just hating and deep down inside wants to be like him, or probably is ugly and can't get as many women as him or something like that!

[Warhawk46]

Butterfly, because you seem very young and ignorant, I'll let your "Ali is the greatest because he said so" argument pass.

First let me make this very clear to anyone reading: I feel Ali was one of the greatest heavyweights of all-time. There is no denying this; however, it bothers me when uneducated kids come on here and say he was unbeatable and unstoppable, he would "dance circles around (insert all-time great)..."

Muhammed Ali, or Cassius Clay, was in trouble against Doug Jones in 1963, a fight for the right to face Champ Sonny Liston. Jones wobbled Ali in this fight, a couple of times.

Also, in the fight IMMEDIATELY preceeding Clay's beating of Liston, little Henry Cooper (183 lbs) dropped Ali in the 4th round. Ali was in ***** street and his trainer, Angelo Dundee might have saved the future-champ from a stunning defeat by ripping his glove while in the corner, thus ensuring Clay enough time to recover. The fight was stopped on cuts on Cooper the next round.

Even after Ali's prime, he received gift decisions against Norton and Lyle, to name a couple. Ali always received a little extra from the judges because of his name.

He was supremely talented, but his skills were somewhat lacking. He held his hands too low (knowing he was a much better athlete than a lot of the plodders he fought in the 1960s) pulled back at punches, and also used illegal holding quite a bit in his later career.

Against someone of similar athletic skill, he would be in trouble. He always struggled against pressure, swarming-type fighters. This style gave him the most problems.

And as for handspeed, I can think of a few heavyweights with similar handspeed. Mike Tyson, for example, actually had quite comparable handspeed. What makes prime Tyson's handspeed more impressive though, is that he threw POWER punches so quickly...Ali's flicking jab and right were very fast; however, Tyson's right to the body, followed by an uppercut was more impressive...he sat on his punches and delivered them nearly as fast, if not as fast as Ali delievered his.

Ali is overrated because so many uneducated young fans think he was absolutely unbeatable and had no weaknesses...he did. He is a top three heavyweight of all time, in my opinion; perhaps #1, sometimes it is difficult to decide. However, I dont engage in mindless worship, I have the ability to watch his fights (and have seen damn near every one) and see strengths and weaknesses.

Just because some says they are the "greatest" often enough, doesnt mean that they are, without question, the Greatest.

[speed_devil]

Butterfly, because you seem very young and ignorant, I'll let your "Ali is the greatest because he said so" argument pass.

First let me make this very clear to anyone reading: I feel Ali was one of the greatest heavyweights of all-time. There is no denying this; however, it bothers me when uneducated kids come on here and say he was unbeatable and unstoppable, he would "dance circles around (insert all-time great)..."

Muhammed Ali, or Cassius Clay, was in trouble against Doug Jones in 1963, a fight for the right to face Champ Sonny Liston. Jones wobbled Ali in this fight, a couple of times.

Also, in the fight IMMEDIATELY preceeding Clay's beating of Liston, little Henry Cooper (183 lbs) dropped Ali in the 4th round. Ali was in ***** street and his trainer, Angelo Dundee might have saved the future-champ from a stunning defeat by ripping his glove while in the corner, thus ensuring Clay enough time to recover. The fight was stopped on cuts on Cooper the next round.

Even after Ali's prime, he received gift decisions against Norton and Lyle, to name a couple. Ali always received a little extra from the judges because of his name.

He was supremely talented, but his skills were somewhat lacking. He held his hands too low (knowing he was a much better athlete than a lot of the plodders he fought in the 1960s) pulled back at punches, and also used illegal holding quite a bit in his later career.

Against someone of similar athletic skill, he would be in trouble. He always struggled against pressure, swarming-type fighters. This style gave him the most problems.

And as for handspeed, I can think of a few heavyweights with similar handspeed. Mike Tyson, for example, actually had quite comparable handspeed. What makes prime Tyson's handspeed more impressive though, is that he threw POWER punches so quickly...Ali's flicking jab and right were very fast; however, Tyson's right to the body, followed by an uppercut was more impressive...he sat on his punches and delivered them nearly as fast, if not as fast as Ali delievered his.

Ali is overrated because so many uneducated young fans think he was absolutely unbeatable and had no weaknesses...he did. He is a top three heavyweight of all time, in my opinion; perhaps #1, sometimes it is difficult to decide. However, I dont engage in mindless worship, I have the ability to watch his fights (and have seen damn near every one) and see strengths and weaknesses.

Just because some says they are the "greatest" often enough, doesnt mean that they are, without question, the Greatest.

Now that is what i call a damn longgggggg message

[butterfly1964]

Butterfly, because you seem very young and ignorant, I'll let your "Ali is the greatest because he said so" argument pass.

First let me make this very clear to anyone reading: I feel Ali was one of the greatest heavyweights of all-time. There is no denying this; however, it bothers me when uneducated kids come on here and say he was unbeatable and unstoppable, he would "dance circles around (insert all-time great)..."

Muhammed Ali, or Cassius Clay, was in trouble against Doug Jones in 1963, a fight for the right to face Champ Sonny Liston. Jones wobbled Ali in this fight, a couple of times.

Also, in the fight IMMEDIATELY preceeding Clay's beating of Liston, little Henry Cooper (183 lbs) dropped Ali in the 4th round. Ali was in ***** street and his trainer, Angelo Dundee might have saved the future-champ from a stunning defeat by ripping his glove while in the corner, thus ensuring Clay enough time to recover. The fight was stopped on cuts on Cooper the next round.

Even after Ali's prime, he received gift decisions against Norton and Lyle, to name a couple. Ali always received a little extra from the judges because of his name.

He was supremely talented, but his skills were somewhat lacking. He held his hands too low (knowing he was a much better athlete than a lot of the plodders he fought in the 1960s) pulled back at punches, and also used illegal holding quite a bit in his later career.

Against someone of similar athletic skill, he would be in trouble. He always struggled against pressure, swarming-type fighters. This style gave him the most problems.

And as for handspeed, I can think of a few heavyweights with similar handspeed. Mike Tyson, for example, actually had quite comparable handspeed. What makes prime Tyson's handspeed more impressive though, is that he threw POWER punches so quickly...Ali's flicking jab and right were very fast; however, Tyson's right to the body, followed by an uppercut was more impressive...he sat on his punches and delivered them nearly as fast, if not as fast as Ali delievered his.

Ali is overrated because so many uneducated young fans think he was absolutely unbeatable and had no weaknesses...he did. He is a top three heavyweight of all time, in my opinion; perhaps #1, sometimes it is difficult to decide. However, I dont engage in mindless worship, I have the ability to watch his fights (and have seen damn near every one) and see strengths and weaknesses.

Just because some says they are the "greatest" often enough, doesnt mean that they are, without question, the Greatest.

i'm young and ignorant? i'm smart enough to know that cooper never fought a prime ali. oh, yeah he did the second time in 1966 and got his ass kicked! i'm not saying any version of ali is invincible, just the 1967 one. he was too strong physically, too fast, and oh, yeah, TOO FAST. no body would come close to him in his prime. but all you people like to bring up cooper and banks fought him in his prime, when they didn't. or frazier fought ali the first time in his prime, when he didn't. and he was still able to clean out the hw division as an old man in the 70s when boxing had by far the best fighters, so what does that tell you? sure he had weaknesses, but in his prime it didn't matter, you couldn't hit him any! so think before you post something little boy!

[RockyMarcianofan00]

i'm young and ignorant? i'm smart enough to know that cooper never fought a prime ali. oh, yeah he did the second time in 1966 and got his ass kicked! i'm not saying any version of ali is invincible, just the 1967 one. he was too strong physically, too fast, and oh, yeah, TOO FAST. no body would come close to him in his prime. but all you people like to bring up cooper and banks fought him in his prime, when they didn't. or frazier fought ali the first time in his prime, when he didn't. and he was still able to clean out the hw division as an old man in the 70s when boxing had by far the best fighters, so what does that tell you? sure he had weaknesses, but in his prime it didn't matter, you couldn't hit him any! so think before you post something little boy!

I still say Marciano could drop him, i relooked at the comp fight and all the statistics,but that aside do u think a prime holmes could go the distance with a prime ali maybe win?
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[RockyMarcianofan00]

i mean i'd say he could go the distance but i don't know about winning ya know?
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[Da Iceman]

Butterfly, because you seem very young and ignorant, I'll let your "Ali is the greatest because he said so" argument pass.

First let me make this very clear to anyone reading: I feel Ali was one of the greatest heavyweights of all-time. There is no denying this; however, it bothers me when uneducated kids come on here and say he was unbeatable and unstoppable, he would "dance circles around (insert all-time great)..."

Muhammed Ali, or Cassius Clay, was in trouble against Doug Jones in 1963, a fight for the right to face Champ Sonny Liston. Jones wobbled Ali in this fight, a couple of times.

Also, in the fight IMMEDIATELY preceeding Clay's beating of Liston, little Henry Cooper (183 lbs) dropped Ali in the 4th round. Ali was in ***** street and his trainer, Angelo Dundee might have saved the future-champ from a stunning defeat by ripping his glove while in the corner, thus ensuring Clay enough time to recover. The fight was stopped on cuts on Cooper the next round.

Even after Ali's prime, he received gift decisions against Norton and Lyle, to name a couple. Ali always received a little extra from the judges because of his name.

He was supremely talented, but his skills were somewhat lacking. He held his hands too low (knowing he was a much better athlete than a lot of the plodders he fought in the 1960s) pulled back at punches, and also used illegal holding quite a bit in his later career.

Against someone of similar athletic skill, he would be in trouble. He always struggled against pressure, swarming-type fighters. This style gave him the most problems.

And as for handspeed, I can think of a few heavyweights with similar handspeed. Mike Tyson, for example, actually had quite comparable handspeed. What makes prime Tyson's handspeed more impressive though, is that he threw POWER punches so quickly...Ali's flicking jab and right were very fast; however, Tyson's right to the body, followed by an uppercut was more impressive...he sat on his punches and delivered them nearly as fast, if not as fast as Ali delievered his.

Ali is overrated because so many uneducated young fans think he was absolutely unbeatable and had no weaknesses...he did. He is a top three heavyweight of all time, in my opinion; perhaps #1, sometimes it is difficult to decide. However, I dont engage in mindless worship, I have the ability to watch his fights (and have seen damn near every one) and see strengths and weaknesses.

Just because some says they are the "greatest" often enough, doesnt mean that they are, without question, the Greatest.

i agree norton got robbed in that third ali fight, but that lyle fight shouldnt have gone any further the man couldnt even hold up his arms to protect his face

you said he would be in trouble if he fought somebody with similar athletic skill, but he never did fight that person did he, so we never no?

[flipside]

i think he is the greatest by far... his flamboyant behavior helped him too... he told everyone he is the greatest and proved it.. if a boxer fights and makes less noise that ali he wouldnt be considered the greatest.. he marketed himself that way thats why he's the greatest.. not to take anythng away from his fighting though.. he was a helluva fighter....