Can you be an elite fighter without ever winning a title?

**Jim Jeffries** · 08-02-2008, 10:45 PM

I'm sorry. Maybe in cases like with Sam Langford, where a guy is continually ducked by everyone and beats tons of former and future champs in his career, you can call a guy elite without ever winning a title. Or say with a guy like Earnie Shavers that fought in the most competitive era in the history of the division. But in no way has Clottey proven himself to be elite before tonight, and I'm not too sure a badly fading Judah qualifies him now.

**KnockoutTheFat** · 08-02-2008, 10:47 PM

There's only one guy I can think of that was an elite fighter without "winning" a title. Ken Norton.

**squealpiggy** · 08-02-2008, 10:48 PM

Nowadays I don't think it would be possible to be elite without winning at least one title. But in the golden era when you had one title and it was often protected by the mob and it was also often protected from black fighters you could have guys who would be considered elite by anyone's standard today like Sam Langford, Johnny McGinty and Harry Wills but who never got to wear any sort of championship belt.

**krispy kreme** · 08-02-2008, 10:49 PM

It is his skill level and I guess the fact that he was close in the fight with Margarito had he not faded. He really has not beaten any top WW but he is a solid fighter and a threat to everyone.

**joseph5620** · 08-02-2008, 10:49 PM

Originally posted by Jim Jeffries

Max Kellerman kept referring to Clottey as an elite fighter all night. At 31 years old and after more than 13 years and 37 fights as a pro he had never won a world title until tonight. In his one shot at a title before now, he lost a clear cut decision against Margarito, who at the time would've been questionable to call him elite. Do you think Kellerman was right in calling him elite before tonight?

I think it's a matter of timing and how the a fighter is promoted. Obviously Clottey came up the hard way like Margarito and is just now showing what he is capable of doing. Prior to his fight with Margarito and Judah ,he had not yet proven what he could do with the top welterweights. I wouldn't have called him "elite" during that period. But I think those two fights alone show that Clottey is a major threat to any of the welterweight champions. So yes, I would say he is among the elite welterweights today. Before this fight I would not have called him elite.as for the fight with Margarito, I thought Clottey was winning the first half of the fight and faded(he said his hand was injured) during the second half. Margaritio won the fight but I would like to see a rematch.

**Kobe Bryant** · 08-02-2008, 10:49 PM

I would say he's a top fighter in the division. As a fan and as a raalist he's not elite. In his defense though he hasn't had a lot of exposure and shots at titles. I think if you give him half the chances Judah has gotten he would be a very known name at the moment.

**The Hammer** · 08-02-2008, 10:53 PM

He's close to being an elite fighter, but I'm not certain whether he is one or not. Judah was really not the best test for him.

I'm hoping he'll fight a top opponent like Williams or Margarito next, then we'll know whether he is or not.

**Jim Jeffries** · 08-02-2008, 10:58 PM

Originally posted by joseph5620

I think it's a matter of timing and how the a fighter is promoted. Obviously Clottey came up the hard way like Margarito and is just now showing what he is capable of doing. Prior to his fight with Margarito and Judah ,he had not yet proven what he could do with the top welterweights. I wouldn't have called him "elite" during that period. But I think those two fights alone show that Clottey is a major threat to any of the welterweight champions. So yes, I would say he is among the elite welterweights today. Before this fight I would not have called him elite.as for the fight with Margarito, I thought Clottey was winning the first half of the fight and faded(he said his hand was injured) during the second half. Margaritio won the fight but I would like to see a rematch.

Originally posted by Tunney

He's close to being an elite fighter, but I'm not certain whether he is one or not. Judah was really not the best test for him.

I'm hoping he'll fight a top opponent like Williams or Margarito next, then we'll know whether he is or not.

Originally posted by lefhooktodabody

I would say he's a top fighter in the division. As a fan and as a raalist he's not elite. In his defense though he hasn't had a lot of exposure and shots at titles. I think if you give him half the chances Judah has gotten he would be a very known name at the moment.

It just struck me as odd that Max repeatedly referred to him as being elite. You could make an argument now, but Max talked about him before this fight as one like it wasn't even debatable.

Can you be an elite fighter without ever winning a title?