Liston - What a shame

[jack_the_rippuh]

Before the Ali fight took place, where would you have rated him and where would you have rated Ali?

[pinkpanther]

Wait...

You don't think those Ali fights detract from his greatness ?

They were COWARDLY exhibitions.

Well I do from the perspective that he was tied up in the mob, asked to take a dive in a specific round so that a bunch of gangsters would cash in, I guess he shouldn't have got involved - cowardly from that perspective. But then what would you do if your life was being threatened? I guess its a tricky one.

I think the mob actually did away with him in the end, the circumstances surrounding his death are a bit dodgy.

[Bombardier]

It not contradictory in the slightest, you simply don't understand. I'm not refering to who he did or didn't beat. I'm refrence the Ali fights when Liston took a dive for the mob.

Some people think that he took a dive because of intimidation from the Nation of Islam. This is not meant as an offence to this organization, but they certainly had some intimidators in those days and Ali was a champion they wanted to protect. Anyway, just another conspiracy theory...

Some people also think that Liston stayed down on his own accord even though he could have got back up. Jack Dempsey believes this and told a great story about his own career to prove how a boxer can completely lose sight of reality while he's in the ring. I can dig it up if anyone's interested.

Liston is one of those ghosts of history, a mysterious figure who led a tragic life. He was unquestionably incredibly gifted and maybe could have been an absolute legend if it weren't for his troubles. Fifty years from now, people may be saying the same thing about Tyson.

[pinkpanther]

Before the Ali fight took place, where would you have rated him and where would you have rated Ali?

Interesting question, Liston was top dog at the time but Ali although rated highly was not considered the no.2, he was about 4 or 5, we know different now, I would say that they were both exceptional within their generation, 1 and 2 no doubt.

[pinkpanther]

Some people think that he took a dive because of intimidation from the Nation of Islam. This is not meant as an offence to this organization, but they certainly had some intimidators in those days and Ali was a champion they wanted to protect. Anyway, just another conspiracy theory...

Some people also think that Liston stayed down on his own accord even though he could have got back up. Jack Dempsey believes this and told a great story about his own career to prove how a boxer can completely lose sight of reality while he's in the ring. I can dig it up if anyone's interested.

Liston is one of those ghosts of history, a mysterious figure who led a tragic life. He was unquestionably incredibly gifted and maybe could have been an absolute legend if it weren't for his troubles. Fifty years from now, people may be saying the same thing about Tyson.

Have you read his book? Night Train, if you haven't you should it's a great read

[Bombardier]

Have you read his book? Night Train, if you haven't you should it's a great read

I have Night Train (though it has a different title on this side of the ocean) though I have yet to read it. I heard it was a little odd and possibly creative with the facts, so to speak. Anyway, that's just what I heard (Tosches is the kind of guy that people like to pick apart if they don't like his work).

I've read the Remnick book on Ali ("King of the World") which has a good deal of content about Liston. The author is a little biased towards Ali, though, and completely discounts the "dive" theories. I sort of take issue with that, but it's interesting to hear both sides, anyway.

[phallus]

i like Sonny liston, i think he belongs in the top ofall time great hw's, but i also know he was a complex man with many personal demons, and i think that kept the world from seeing his full potential

[dempseyfire]

Liston cleaned out a very deep HW division while waiting for his title shot. It's not his fault he was in his mid-late 30s by the time Patterson gave him a title shot . . .

[hollister]

I agree, there was still alot of stuff going on back then, and Liston got his shot way to late. This coupled with the fact that he didn't really like to train kept him from being at his best at times. Many people that know of him do generally regard him as a Tyson-like brawler, because most of them have only seen his fights with Ali and Patterson, but in fact he was an excellent boxer puncher with a very hard jab and knockout power in either hand. He should be the one people are putting in their lists instead of talking about Lewis being an all time great.

(just an opinion)

[tjp]

All I'm going of is what you said. What's there to understand ? The facts are...off of what he accomplished, he does not deserve to be in anyone's top 5.

What he could have been & what he was...are two different things.

Greats don't get rated on potential.

You are absolutely free to lament what coulda been.

Say what you want about his two fights with Ali, but they HAPPENED, & they were AWFUL.

I couldn't agree more. I understand that it is fun to think what if but the truth of the matter is that unless there is historical evidence that the guy could perform at top level against top fighters (consistently) then there is no way he could be rated in anyone's top 10 (especially considering all of the other heavyweights that have managed to perform at this level over the past hundred plus years)