P4P - Greatest of all time - Joe Calzaghe?

[abadger]

It's not for us to decide, though. ATG's withstand the test of time. The next generation will decide how Calzaghe is held by history.

Can't argue with that. If Joe does what he needs to, I hope they decide right!
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24 advice

[pfcwintergreen]

great post abadger...perfect description of how people view fighters in the modern era.

I don't think Calzaghe will ever be viewed as an ATG though, awesome though he is. I think the perception that today's fighters are inferior to yesterdays fighters will hold sway for a long time....and to some extent its true. In the past the divisions were more tightly packed with talent, and of course they fought a great deal more. This makes it very difficult for someone like Calzaghe to prove they belong in the class of ATGs.

If Calzaghe could have fought James Toney AND Roy Jones at 168(and won) he'd have a much better shot.

Basically, to be seen as an ATG candidate now you have to fight and beat every major name in and around your division. Its a tall order.

[Günther]

Just heard that from Enzo Calzaghe himself.

Is there any way he could back up these claims?

Maybe he beats Hopkins, Pavik, then RJJ? Is he one then?

He has to have a chance.

?

hes IS top P4P

[FRKO]

Let the people talk.

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/sh...jones+calzaghe

I've seen the thread before. It's just opinion. You can favor one guy or the other, but unless they actually fought there's no way to say who'd win. Example: most people (about 70% in the average poll) think Calzaghe will beat Hopkins. You think Hopkins will beat calzaghe. Who's right? Who's wrong? To be honest, we might as well STFU until they fight because it's all opinion, and, essentially, it doesn't mean that much.

[abadger]

great post abadger...perfect description of how people view fighters in the modern era.

I don't think Calzaghe will ever be viewed as an ATG though, awesome though he is. I think the perception that today's fighters are inferior to yesterdays fighters will hold sway for a long time....and to some extent its true. In the past the divisions were more tightly packed with talent, and of course they fought a great deal more. This makes it very difficult for someone like Calzaghe to prove they belong in the class of ATGs.

If Calzaghe could have fought James Toney AND Roy Jones at 168(and won) he'd have a much better shot.

Basically, to be seen as an ATG candidate now you have to fight and beat every major name in and around your division. Its a tall order.

Thanks.

Maybe you're right. I think in the UK at least an undefeated Joe may well go down as our best ever fighter, but I agree true world recognition will be harder. I think retiring undefeated (if he does) would help a lot, and I think his style will make him an appealing prospect for future reassesment by hardcore boxing fans, but I agree the ATG list already has lots of fighters with plenty of similar and even better looking credentials based on names.

I suppose ATG isn't just about how good you are, or how impressive your record is, its about fame too and I admit Calzaghe is a little lacking in that.

Doesn't mean he wouldn't deserve it though.
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Fisting German

[.Mik.]

great post abadger...perfect description of how people view fighters in the modern era.

I don't think Calzaghe will ever be viewed as an ATG though, awesome though he is. I think the perception that today's fighters are inferior to yesterdays fighters will hold sway for a long time....and to some extent its true. In the past the divisions were more tightly packed with talent, and of course they fought a great deal more. This makes it very difficult for someone like Calzaghe to prove they belong in the class of ATGs.

If Calzaghe could have fought James Toney AND Roy Jones at 168(and won) he'd have a much better shot.

Basically, to be seen as an ATG candidate now you have to fight and beat every major name in and around your division. Its a tall order.

Boxing is funny because of how unmeasurable it is. In almost every sport in the world, the sportsmen of today are better than the sportsmen of yesteryear. You can measure it be look at the times they ran, the distance they jumped, the scores they racked up, the trophies they won, etc. Obviously, a lot of this has to do with increases in technology, greater awareness in training methods and technique etc. In all honesty, if you put Joe Calzaghe in the ring with many of the people considered to be the best SMWs of all time, its most likely that he'd beat the majority of them because in general people evolve and become stronger, faster and better. There are very few records that still stand from 50 years ago or longer in sport.

Now, we dont know today whether the competition was really better in the years of Leonard, Hagler, Hearns, Duran etc, or whether they just all happened to exist in a time when all the top guys were at the same level. So does Joe Calzaghe deserve to be punished because he is at a higher level than the guys around him, to the point where its so noticeable that he's discredited for it?

In short, probably. All you can do to prove yourself in boxing is to beat people who the casual fan (or even the experts) think can beat you. Once upon a time, fighters used to do that more often, even if they lost. Its tough to say, but you just dont get the credit for beating people who the casual fan fancies you to beat. Sugar Ray Robinson was incredible, he beat people from many different weights who were greats of their time...sure, in reality many of them probably wouldnt actually make it as professional boxers in this day and age, but everything seems more impressive when you've had decades to reflect on it. The grass is always greener and suchlike.

[Chunk..]

I've seen the thread before. It's just opinion. You can favor one guy or the other, but unless they actually fought there's no way to say who'd win. Example: most people (about 70% in the average poll) think Calzaghe will beat Hopkins. You think Hopkins will beat calzaghe. Who's right? Who's wrong? To be honest, we might as well STFU until they fight because it's all opinion, and, essentially, it doesn't mean that much.

True, but it makes me wonder why people would back Joe to beat a prime Roy Jones, I've tried to get me nut round it but i can't.

Enlighten me FRKO.

[pfcwintergreen]

In all honesty, if you put Joe Calzaghe in the ring with many of the people considered to be the best SMWs of all time, its most likely that he'd beat the majority of them because in general people evolve and become stronger, faster and better.

Well, SMW is an extremely young division(I don't think there was a SMW division before the 80's), and I do in fact believe that Calzaghe is the best SMW of all time.

You'd have to compare him to middle weights and light heavy weights in terms of being an ATG.

As for athletes and sportsman getting better over time due to superior training and nutrition; this applies to boxing, but thats not all that enters into it.

Boxing used to be a big god damn deal, a huge national draw. Nowadays its a niche(listed after tennis on espn.com), and most naturally gifted competitors would rather play football/basketball/baseball. Plus..and I'm not that educated on these matters...I don't think the culture of boxing gyms and amateur tournaments is all that strong right now. In fact, I hear its incredibly weak...

So you have gifted athletes turning to other sports and you have a very weak structure (boxing gyms, amateurs) to entice them. Plus there isn't much money in boxing unless you are at the apex of the sport.

I think in this environment someone like George Foreman would have been a lineman, and that goes for many other heavyweight boxers.

This is less of an issue the lower in weight class you go..and..suprise suprise, those divisions are much stronger.

Add to this the fact that boxers fight less, and have less time to hone their skills, and I think you can see why advances in sports medicine cannot negate this trend.

Or is there some factor I'm ignoring?

[ExecutiveOutlaw]

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[Killa Cam]

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