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Originally posted by th4l3pr3ch4un
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Put it in your Sig...
5K BET...
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Ight bet,
Put it in your Sig...
5K BET... -
Hopkins owns Calzaghe in this fight! Hey Joe, Welcome to the desert *****! Hope you don't choke.....Comment
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All my point now max, Not accepting no more bets...
Stop the messagesComment
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Originally posted by Horus View Post
PART 1.....
OK, time to look at your post and questions:
This is a nice idea, but I don't think it is ever true. Boxing is the most physical sport there is, and while ring smarts can get you so far, what really counts are the punches you throw, the punches you take, the punches you avoid and how well you can keep on fighting down the stretch. I agree that in Hopkins case his mindset and tactics have become extremely important, because his physical skills are in decline, but we have not seen any evidence that this is the case for Calzaghe. In all of Calzaghe's recent fights his ability to keep fighting to the final bell has been little short of amazing. A commentator on HBO described him as a "fantastic fighting machine". If Hopkins is relying on his "mind" to win this fight, he is in trouble, because he is facing a fighter who not only has a mind, but some of the most prodigious physical gifts in boxing today.Hopkins and Calzaghe are at points in their career in which, their bodies dont wIN the majority of the fights no more, it's their minds that does the fighting...
I understand that Bernard is widely considered to be one of the world's most competitive boxers, at this point however, I cannot see how you think his "desire to win" will be greater than that of Calzaghe. Firstly Bernard Hopkins is widely acclaimed in the US as a "legend", most observers agree that he has little left to prove. Joe Calzaghe on the other hand is still awaiting the US recognition he feels he deserves and this is his first fight in the US, and the one that will make or break his name. Surely he has greater desire to win. Second, remember Hopkins has lost before, and seen his "greatness" unaffected. He has experienced the fact that defeat is not the end of the world or his career. Calzaghe still retains the lustre of the undefeated champion, indeed it is biggest claim to "greatness" losing his 0 would be disastrous for him.Who has the most desire to win..?
I applaud you for not saying "who beat the better opposition" which is the simplistic (and wrong) condemnation of Calzaghe's resume we see most often on this forum. I think the question of who has been in tougher fights is more interesting, and I find it hard to call a winner here. I actually think I give the edge to Hopkins. Joe Calzaghe has never faced an opponent of Roy Jones's calibre, that is for sure! However, beyond that I don't see a huge gap in terms of how difficult their fights have been. Both have faced their fair share of cans, but both also faced plenty of good world level contenders and champions who asked them plenty of questions. For a very green Joe, Eubank was a war, as was Reid, and both Brewer and Mitchell made him fight while it lasted. The Bika fight was an absolute nightmare of fouling and headbutts and to beat Kessler Joe had to walk through some of the hardest right hands in SMW boxing. For the hopkins fights I've seen, Jones, Trinidad, Taylor x 2, Wright and even De La Hoya all had their moments and gave Bernard trouble at some point. We should remember that it is not Hopkins style to dominate opponents like Calzaghe does, it is always a bit more subtle and closer, based on his style alone. No question, the names are bigger for Hopkins and he has probably had more close fights than Calzaghe, but Calzaghe has had tough ones too. If this question confers an advantage on a fighter then I give it to Hopkins, but traditionally, is having been in lots of hard fights not sometimes seen as a disadvantage too, especially as fighters approach veteran status?Who been in tougher fights..?
Without your explanation of what you think Hopkins does when hurt, I can't exactly answer you, however, I presume you are suggesting that Bernard switches it up, changes tack and finds a way to beat his opponent. Fair enough, he does. However, even if you watch only a few Calzaghe fights you quickly see that just about the worst thing you can do to Calzaghe is hurt him. Knocked down by Mitchell, he decimated him in the very same round. Against Kessler, every time Kessler really hurt him, he came back and showed Kessler that not only could he take the punishment, he could return it in kind. You could see it in Kesslers face when he realised that there was nothing he could do that was going to stop Joe. As a B-Hop fan you might at this point want to say that this kind of agressive retaliation will play into Bernards counter punching hands, and if that were all that Calzaghe did you would be right. It isn't though. Again against Kessler, after taking a few uppercuts and firing back hard, Joe changed his gameplan so he wouldn't have to take them all night. After about three or so, those uppercuts stopped landing. Both Bernard and Joe are excellent fighters under pressure, but I don't see how Bernard can be given the edge in terms of response to getting hurt, Joe is one of the best in the business at this.What do you do when you hurt..?
I'm surprised you raised this. It is hardly a valid reason for picking Hopkins as the winner, since fouling is cheating. However, I can be a realist. I guess we are primarily talking about intentional fouls by Hopkins on Calzaghe. OK, worst case scenario Hopkins headbutts Joe, Joe gets cut and Hopkins gets a TKO. Neither Joe nor anyone else could do anything about it once the headbutt lands. It could happen the other way around too. Outside of that....what? Joe demonstrated against Bika, in one of the dirtiest fights I've seen that he can live with being fouled, having a head constantly in his face, and even getting cut. In a big fight like this, no way is Hopkins going to be able (or even try IMO) to foul as much as Bika did, it would be a farce, so I think this is a bit of a non-starter. These two are/were the two longest reigning experienced champions in boxing today, both elite level boxers. Either one can handle a few fouls, outside of a fight stopping cut.How can you handle Intentional Fouls..?
Another instance when I think you are grossly underestimating Calzaghe. Bernard is reknowned as a tactical clever fighter, and I am not going to say otherwise, he is. I could even allow, that for the sake of argument, he is better at this than Calzaghe. He needs to be, he is 43. This goes back to your initial premise that this fight will be won "in the mind", and my counter, that it won't, it will be won in the ring. It is all very well to believe that Bernard will know how to adapt to Calzaghe's style, but quite another to believe he will be able to do so. Calzaghe himself is reknowned as an incredibly awkward spoiler, and brings a whole host of physical and technical problems that Bernard will have to contend with. He is faster, stronger and has great ring intelligence himself (see my earlier discussion of Calzaghe / Kessler). The notion of adaptation relies on the idea that the mind identifies an area of our opponents game in which he has a weakness or we can outmatch him, and I don't see what this will be for Hopkins against Calzaghe. What does Hopkins have that Calzaghe can't cope with? A right hand? See Kessler. Fouling? Please? Stamina? No. Workrate? No. Handspeed? No. Now ask what Joe has to trouble Hopkins, and answer yes to most of those same questions.How can you adapt to the other fighters gameplan..?
...CONTINUED IN NEXT POST....
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Bondage CollarsLast edited by abadger; 03-20-2011, 11:11 PM.Comment
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PART 2.....Originally posted by Horus View Post
First of all, trainers don't win fights, fighters do. You could train Manfredo Jnr or Lacy until the end of time and they would never beat a prime Calzaghe. Same thing with Mike Tyson, no way he's ever coming back. A good trainer can teach skills, tactics and improve fitness and concentration to help a fighter reach the maximum of that potential, but the limit is defined by that potential, not the ability of the trainer. Also, Hopkins claims to have assembled this dream team, but at 43 and years of a presumably repetitive and rigorous elite level training regime, what on earth can they teach Hopkins that he doesn't already know? At best the change might provide a few new ideas and some additional motivation, but improve Hopkins fundamentally as a fighter in terms of skills or fitness? No way. At worst the change could be destabilising. Joe Calzaghe is in a similar position, entering the fight after years and years of elite level training at the hands of the current trainer of the year. Training which has guided him to an undefeated professional record as contender and champ. By any measure it seems to be working. Simply put, with these two fighters, training is much less important than it seems. Come fight night we will see tha Joe Calzaghe we know and the Bernard Hopkins we know too. Then we will see who of these two familiar fighters is the best.Who has the better trainer ..??
As I indicated in an earlier post, I find this to be a somewhat ephemeral question, revolving ultimately on us being able to subjectively see inside the minds of each of the fighters for an answer, which of course we can't. It seems to me, (and I hate to say this) that this and a few other of the questions here are more or less coming straight from the Hopkins hype machine, with a little less consideration of the facts than I'm used to seeing from you. If I had to call the pressure I would say that there is more on Calzaghe than Hopkins, since much more is riding on this fight for him, the loss of his 0, the making of his name in the US etc. I think there is little pressure on Bernard by comparison. This will either be an advantage or a disadvantage to one or both fighters. Calzaghe may crumble or he may bloom, Bernard may lack motivation or put in a turn-back-the-clock uninhibited performance. Who knows. If I were to guess, based on his past record in which his best performances have been his biggest fights, I think we will see the best of Joe, and also the best of Hopkins for a while. Again the real difference will be the qualities they bring to the ring.Who Has the most pressure put on him from the build up..?
I'm not sure what you mean by this exactly, but since you have already mentioned intentional fouling, I'm going to assume you mean who will be willing to put themselves through hell, show more heart than they ever have before, and go above and beyond the call of duty to win. My answer to this is (like the question) similar to the one I gave above about "who will have the most desire to win". If you look at the circumstances surrounding the fight, what the result will mean to each fighters legacy, the recent records of the fighters, and some of their past fights, I think all the evidence favours Calzaghe in this regard. Again, this is his biggest ever fight in a so far undefeated career upon which his reputation and legacy almost entirely rest. This is just not true for Hopkins. It is a big payday at the end of a magnificent career for a fighter beginning to decline, and which will have little or no effect on his legacy. I know who I'd pick to "do anything to win" here. Apart from this, I think if we look at the heart each fighter has shown throughout their career, I'd say its equal. Both have come back when they were down, both have beaten men picked to beat them. Nobody has reigned as champs as long as these two have and I think that says a lot. Perhaps a key difference though, is that Hopkins has actually been beaten, whereas Joe has not, and I suspect that might say even more.Who will do anything to win..?
Which fighter has tasted desperate before...?
I guess you are referring to Hopkin's background and prison time. Fair enough, Calzaghe hasn't experienced anything like that. As for whether it has any real bearing on the outcome of the fight on April 19...I really don't think so. It is really little more than part of the Hopkins hype/ mind games spiel. How does it have anything to do with Hopkins v Calzaghe? I'm sure it motivated Bernard a lot at the beginning of his career, and still does. He must thank God every day that he was blessed to turn things around, but he's pretty far from desperate these days. If he loses what's the worst that could happen? He's still a multimillionaire legendary boxer with more paydays ahead of he wants them. The very definition of comfortable. For reasons I have already discussed, if you're looking for the motivating factor that will decide the fight, then you don't need to look any further than the meaning of the fight itself. At this point, Calzaghe will be considerably more desperate to win than Bernard is.
This I think, is the best point you have made. If there is a single thing that makes this fight different from most of those in Calzaghe's history it is this, and I would add the move up in weight, which is riskier than is generally acknowledged simply because we won't know how it affects Calzaghe until fight night. For one of the first times in his career, the likelihood is that a close fight would be scored against him, and that is undoubtedly a threat to Calzaghe. He also needs to show he can handle the change of environment. However, I don't believe that these factors alone can ever justify picking against Calzaghe, its the same thing as saying Ottke can never be beat in Germany. It is these factors that make this the biggest fight of Calzaghe's career, the one that will make or break him. Since he has never looked like cracking before, I believe he will handle Hopkins, handle the presure, handle the changes and show the world just how good a fighter he is.This is not Wales, He is not at Home, He is not SAFE..!!
To conclude, almost all the arguments in the original post are predicated on the idea that the fight will be won in the mind, but this is simply not true. In fact this idea represents significant grasping at straws from the Hopkins camp, when faced with the simple truth that in this one, Hopkins is overmatched in terms of both physical and technical skill. The arguments for a Hopkins win outlined here are a result of wishful thinking and being a fan rather than on the facts as they currently stand. The fight will be won in the ring, by the better fighter, his name is Joe Calzaghe.
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Herbal Vaporizer ForumLast edited by abadger; 03-20-2011, 11:11 PM.Comment
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I'll bet 5k on Calzaghe just to get me more hyped for the fight, any takers?Comment
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All my points on Calzaghe!Comment
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I got 5k on Calzaghe.Comment
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what happens when Calzaghe gets hurt?
Fireworks.
I hope it happens in this fight otherwise it's going to be really boring.Comment
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