In all fairness to Joe Calzaghe

**box2box** · 03-31-2008, 05:51 PM

I'd say that's a fair assessment.

**Ryn0** · 03-31-2008, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by vladimir303

I just saw this thread about Calzaghe not being great asking what Calzaghe has done to be great.

First I'm not a Calzaghe fan and I think that he fights like a ***** fighting his way out of spider webs BUT he has solidified himself as the greatest of his division. If you can do that in any division you should be considered great.

He is probably the greatest super-middleweight of all time although the division is not as historic as welterweight, middleweight or light-heavyweight. The division has only been around since the 80's.

Nonetheless Joe Calzaghe is a great fighter and a future hall of famer. However that does not mean he is an all-time great....he is NOT. In order to be an all time great you have to beat great fighters. A case could be made IF he beats Hopkins which is a big IF.

Marvin Hagler is one of the greatest middleweights of all time, that does not mean he can be listed among the all-time greats regardless of weight classes. Joe is in that same category and even less great then Marvin Hagler was. Hagler defeated some great fighters in his time and basically cleaned out his division. Don't be fooled by undefeated records.

Hagler is an ATG............ but good post.

**Vladimir303** · 03-31-2008, 06:01 PM

Originally posted by Ryno113

Hagler is an ATG............ but good post.

Yes he is depending on how far you stretch the ATG list. Top 20, Top 50 or Top 100......I'm sure he fits in there somewhere.

As I've said, he cleaned out his division and he defeated some great fighters along the way. Joe is in that same group of one-division fighters but he hasn't beaten one great fighter yet.

So he has to be well below a Marvin Hagler, Joe Louis or a Bernard Hopkins at this point. All guys who defended their division's title at least over 10 times.

**Ryn0** · 03-31-2008, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by vladimir303

Yes he is depending on how far you stretch the ATG list. Top 20, Top 50 or Top 100......I'm sure he fits in there somewhere.

As I've said, he cleaned out his division and he defeated some great fighters along the way. Joe is in that same group of one-division fighters but he hasn't beaten one great fighter yet.

So he has to be well below a Marvin Hagler, Joe Louis or a Bernard Hopkins at this point. All guys who defended their division's title at least over 10 times.

TBH I would put Calzaghe right next to Hopkins in terms of achievement maybe even one place higher. Hopkins although being a great fighter has fought opposition who at welterweight were better fighters than Calzaghe's.
Hopkins has beaten ATG fighters but they were coming up two weight classes Trinidad & ODLH were above there best weight. Hopkins has lost to EVERY ELITE level fighter that is the same size as him with the exception of Tarver who's only real achievement was beating a shell of the once great RJJ.

Even Wright a respectable win was best at 154 and had never fought at 175. Calzaghe's opposition while not stellar has been of a decent level, and he has beaten fighters that are his size which is something Hopkins hasn't been able to do. He lost to RJJ and Taylor even though the Taylor wins were close and it evident now that Taylor will not be remembered as an ATG middleweight.

O and I put Hagler in my top 10 P4P all time but P4P is purely opinionated and can never really be accoutable for anything.

**MELLY-MEL...** · 03-31-2008, 06:17 PM

i can agree with alot of this post.

**Motofan** · 03-31-2008, 06:18 PM

Originally posted by vladimir303

I just saw this thread about Calzaghe not being great asking what Calzaghe has done to be great.

First I'm not a Calzaghe fan and I think that he fights like a ***** fighting his way out of spider webs BUT he has solidified himself as the greatest of his division. If you can do that in any division you should be considered great.

He is probably the greatest super-middleweight of all time although the division is not as historic as welterweight, middleweight or light-heavyweight. The division has only been around since the 80's.

Nonetheless Joe Calzaghe is a great fighter and a future hall of famer. However that does not mean he is an all-time great....he is NOT. In order to be an all time great you have to beat great fighters. A case could be made IF he beats Hopkins which is a big IF.

Marvin Hagler is one of the greatest middleweights of all time, that does not mean he can be listed among the all-time greats regardless of weight classes. Joe is in that same category and even less great then Marvin Hagler was. Hagler defeated some great fighters in his time and basically cleaned out his division. Don't be fooled by undefeated records.

Thanks for making me spit out my Pepsi.

**Dynamite Kid** · 03-31-2008, 06:23 PM

Originally posted by Ryno113

TBH I would put Calzaghe right next to Hopkins in terms of achievement maybe even one place higher. Hopkins although being a great fighter has fought opposition who at welterweight were better fighters than Calzaghe's.
Hopkins has beaten ATG fighters but they were coming up two weight classes Trinidad & ODLH were above there best weight. Hopkins has lost to EVERY ELITE level fighter that is the same size as him with the exception of Tarver who's only real achievement was beating a shell of the once great RJJ.

Even Wright a respectable win was best at 154 and had never fought at 175. Calzaghe's opposition while not stellar has been of a decent level, and he has beaten fighters that are his size which is something Hopkins hasn't been able to do. He lost to RJJ and Taylor even though the Taylor wins were close and it evident now that Taylor will not be remembered as an ATG middleweight.

O and I put Hagler in my top 10 P4P all time but P4P is purely opinionated and can never really be accoutable for anything.

i agree with most of this post however lets not forget what Hearns ,Duran ,Leonard natural wieght was 147 lbs and Duran even lower than that ,Haglers best wins were against WW

**Guest** · 03-31-2008, 06:25 PM

Originally posted by vladimir303

I just saw this thread about Calzaghe not being great asking what Calzaghe has done to be great.

First I'm not a Calzaghe fan and I think that he fights like a ***** fighting his way out of spider webs BUT he has solidified himself as the greatest of his division. If you can do that in any division you should be considered great.

He is probably the greatest super-middleweight of all time although the division is not as historic as welterweight, middleweight or light-heavyweight. The division has only been around since the 80's.

Nonetheless Joe Calzaghe is a great fighter and a future hall of famer. However that does not mean he is an all-time great....he is NOT. In order to be an all time great you have to beat great fighters. A case could be made IF he beats Hopkins which is a big IF.

Marvin Hagler is one of the greatest middleweights of all time, that does not mean he can be listed among the all-time greats regardless of weight classes. Joe is in that same category and even less great then Marvin Hagler was. Hagler defeated some great fighters in his time and basically cleaned out his division. Don't be fooled by undefeated records.

168 has obviously not had very many decent fighters that stuck around for more than just a handful of fights...

**Ryn0** · 03-31-2008, 06:33 PM

Originally posted by Terrible...

i agree with most of this post however lets not forget what Hearns ,Duran ,Leonard natural wieght was 147 lbs and Duran even lower than that ,Haglers best wins were against WW

True but Hearns & Leonard are ATG's although they were not the best middleweight's they had managed to go beyond heavyweight and capture titles at light heavy.
Hearn's stature meant he was more suited at middleweight. You've also got very good fighters at 160 that Hagler beat such as Mugabi, Ray Seales, Antuofermo, Minter.
But the wins over Welters were his beat but he also beat EVERYONE his own size. With the exception of Leonard which in my eyes Hagler won but a Prime Hagler would've beaten Leonard with relative ease compared to the actual fight. Thats the thing I liked about Hagler no nonsense come forward and beat the **** outta you. He knew when his best days were over so he retired before he could slide too far.

In all fairness to Joe Calzaghe