Kelly Pavlik vs Bernard Hopkins

[moofo]

This is such a weak argument. All of those people listed were fighting as middleweights. What is Hopkins going to do? Turn down the biggest fights in his life because someone in the future is going to say "well they weren't TRUE middleweights". Please.

It's like saying Marvin Hagler aint **** - All he did was beat up on smaller, "blown up welterweights." Roberto Duran? Blown up welterweight. Sugar Ray Leonard? Blown up welterweight. It's rediculous.

Hopkins cleaned up the middleweight division and held on to the titles for over 10 years. So what if the biggest names are "blown up welterweights?" They chose to fight Hopkins, they weren't forced to. Hopkins fought the best opponents available.

Tell me who did those opponents beat at middleweight?

[ИATAS]

Are you seriously trying to argue Hopkins isn't one of the all time great middleweights? Tell me then, in the last 10-15 years, who is better?

[The Surgeon]

Bernard Hopkins UD's Kelly Pavlik every day of the week except on sundays - He Knocks em out!

[moofo]

Are you seriously trying to argue Hopkins isn't one of the all time great middleweights? Tell me then, in the last 10-15 years, who is better?

That is the whole point mate.
He hasn't had any real competition has he?
And when he has he has lost to them.
i.e RJJ & Taylor.

[sonofisis]

That is the whole point mate.
He hasn't had any real competition has he?
And when he has he has lost to them.
i.e RJJ & Taylor.

But you didn't answer his question. Who in the last 10-15 years is better and has accomplished more in the Middle Weight division? Surely it should be hard to think of anyone.

[moofo]

But you didn't answer his question. Who in the last 10-15 years is better and has accomplished more in the Middle Weight division? Surely it should be hard to think of anyone.

That question is irrelevant.
The fact is the best man he faced left the MW division and Hopkins failed to chase him to avenge his loss.
How can you measure greatness against such mediocre talent?
Hopkins beat who was in the division but who exactly in the division did he beat that stood out as a worthy HOF adversary ???

[ИATAS]

That is the whole point mate.
He hasn't had any real competition has he?
And when he has he has lost to them.
i.e RJJ & Taylor.

Yes he has. I think my post that that covers the "blown up welters" is a bs argument and the fact he cleaned up the middleweight division, had the belts for over 10 years, etc. proves the point that he is an all time great without question.

Is Haglers win over Duran any less impressive? Or his fights with SRL? Should Hagler turned down the biggest fights of his career because they were "blown up welters?" Nope. He did what any boxer would do which is fight.

Even if you take away the big names, it's still impressive. He fought everyone in the middleweight division and beat them. Maybe Aaron Pryor shouldn't be in the hall of fame either because he didn't fight any big names either.

[moofo]

Yes he has. I think my post that that covers the "blown up welters" is a bs argument and the fact he cleaned up the middleweight division, had the belts for over 10 years, etc. proves the point that he is an all time great without question.

Is Haglers win over Duran any less impressive? Or his fights with SRL? Should Hagler turned down the biggest fights of his career because they were "blown up welters?" Nope. He did what any boxer would do which is fight.

Even if you take away the big names, it's still impressive. He fought everyone in the middleweight division and beat them. Maybe Aaron Pryor shouldn't be in the hall of fame either because he didn't fight any big names either.

The man has lost to the only true world class middleweights he faced.
Why is that All time great ?
3 of his so called defences were against Robert allen.

[mrrupo]

That question is irrelevant.
The fact is the best man he faced left the MW division and Hopkins failed to chase him to avenge his loss.
How can you measure greatness against such mediocre talent?
Hopkins beat who was in the division but who exactly in the division did he beat that stood out as a worthy HOF adversary ???

First off, it is hard to retain any respect for you after this thread. I doubt that you care, but I just wanted to let you know.

Second, Bernard beat whoever they put in front of him. He wanted to avenge the loss to RJJ, but was never given that opportunity. IMHO, he shouldnt have been avenging anything to Taylor, since I think he beat him in the first fight. Ok, so he lost twice to taylor, at a weight that he clearly shouldnt have been fighting at for some time, but did because he had respect for the belts, and he was disciplined enough to make the weight. The man is in his mid 40's and has been beating some of the other HOF bound guys. To say he isnt an all time great is foolish and disrespectful. Calzaghe should get the same respect. He beat who was put in front of him, and that is all you can ask.

[moofo]

First off, it is hard to retain any respect for you after this thread. I doubt that you care, but I just wanted to let you know.

Second, Bernard beat whoever they put in front of him. He wanted to avenge the loss to RJJ, but was never given that opportunity. IMHO, he shouldnt have been avenging anything to Taylor, since I think he beat him in the first fight. Ok, so he lost twice to taylor, at a weight that he clearly shouldnt have been fighting at for some time, but did because he had respect for the belts, and he was disciplined enough to make the weight. The man is in his mid 40's and has been beating some of the other HOF bound guys. To say he isnt an all time great is foolish and disrespectful. Calzaghe should get the same respect. He beat who was put in front of him, and that is all you can ask.

Which prime HOF guys has he beaten who earned their HOF status at Middleweight??
He could have chased RJJ up to SMW or LHW but he didn't.