Mike Tyson: GREAT whether you like it or not

[rsl]

When Tyson fired Kevin Rooney his last chance at greatness slipped away

Here we go w/ that Rooney bull**** again(lol). Let me ask y'all this who was Kevin Rooney before and after Tyson? I don't hear Rooney's name being thrown around as being one the most sought after trainers of today or even back then! All of us could've been Tyson's trainer back in the good 'ole days and we would've achieved the same things when Rooney was with Iron Mike. It would've been easy to have trained Tyson back then cause nobody had to! As alot of you have stated, ******* were already ****tin' their trunks before they even stepped in the ring with Tyson. Don't get me wrong I'm a huge Tyson fan but I cannot consider him a great . To be listed with the best of all-time, and this may sound cheesy or cliche, but you have got to have mind, body, and soul and not just one or two out of the three but all of 'em working together, especially when the going gets tough, and Tyson failed everytime he had a big test in front of him(inside and outside of the ring). A perfect example of a fight(s) having all three characteristics was the Ali - Frazier series. Those two GREATS left no stone unturned.

[rsl]

F.Y.I Tyson never got to his prime, he was just so much more talented than everybody else but we never really saw Mighty Mike evolve as a fighter, but we definitely witnessed him de-evolve as a boxer and fellow human being!

[vB Martin]

Rooney's contribution wasn't as much in the training of Mike as it was in helping him keep his head on straight. It was after King's involvement and Rooney's firing that Mike began to devolve as a human being.

As for that sig, it's pure bull****. If George W. Bush were to find a cure for cancer tomorrow, it wouldn't erase the fact that he was too chicken**** to serve his country yet still feels justified in sending kids around the world to die for a lie.
It was under Hitler's rule that Germany invented the rocket, which led us to space, the jet engine, which made the world a smaller place, the Autobahn, the most celebrated highway system in the world, invented Methodone, which has helped thousands of addicts kick heroin. Do all these accomplishments under Hitler's direction negate the fact that he is the second most brutal mass murderer in the history of mankind?

[Bubba Chunday]

When Tyson fired Kevin Rooney his last chance at greatness slipped away

i agree.
Rooney was Tysons last link to cusd mato, and without cus, tyson would never had been anything. He would have stayed on the streets.
After Rooney left it was all about the big punch.
Really its amazing that Tyson has been successful ever since, relying on a big punch.

[rsl]

Rooney's contribution wasn't as much in the training of Mike as it was in helping him keep his head on straight. It was after King's involvement and Rooney's firing that Mike began to devolve as a human being.

As for that sig, it's pure bull****. If George W. Bush were to find a cure for cancer tomorrow, it wouldn't erase the fact that he was too chicken**** to serve his country yet still feels justified in sending kids around the world to die for a lie.
It was under Hitler's rule that Germany invented the rocket, which led us to space, the jet engine, which made the world a smaller place, the Autobahn, the most celebrated highway system in the world, invented Methodone, which has helped thousands of addicts kick heroin. Do all these accomplishments under Hitler's direction negate the fact that he is the second most brutal mass murderer in the history of mankind?

I see your point, but your way off course on this one. Tyson was all screwed up before and during Rooney, I really believe that even if King never got into the picture the story would've ended in a similar fashion. Rooney was nothing but a f**king babysitter

[HomicideHank]

Mike Tyson in his prime was unstoppable.

BZZZZZT!!!!!



IN HIS PRIME........

No "he didn't train" or "long count" excuses-- it was in his prime. The good goes with the bad. He didn't become past his prime just because he caught an asswhooping.

Mike happened to catch his beating a fight early-- it was originally scheduled for the Holyfield fight, which was to have followed the Douglas fight.

[psychopath]

It seems all anyone does in this world is kick someone while there down. All anyone does is focus on the negatives of Mike Tyson's career. Which is normal because there has been alot of negativity. But what about the positive?
-Youngest Heavyweight Champion of all time
-revived Boxing when it was down
-Gave fans great highlights to salavge for years
-Reguardless of outcomes he fought the best heavyweights available. Sure journeymen to,but he fought Holmes, Spinks, Holyfield twice and Lennox Lewis. (also Razor Rud**** wasn't a bad fighter.)
-He brought alot of excitement to Boxing, I think alot of people would agree with me that Mike Tyson fights are usually very exciting to watch.
Had Mike Tyson not have screwed up so much in the last 10+ years he could have been the greatest. The Mike Tyson story is kind of like the movie Scarface as far as the moral goes. To me the theme of Scarface is when you get to much to soon some people do not know ho handle it. Mike Tyson had to much to soon just like Scarface and he lost it all in the end. Mike Tyson should be a lesson to young fighters coming up, saying when you become successful be careful of the people around and the things you do. Reguardless of what happens with the rest of his career whether your a fan or you hate him Mike Tyson's impact on the sport will forever be wrote in the pages of Boxing history. Mike Tyson's legend will eventually reside in Canastota, New York at the Boxing Hall Of Fame. The reason I wrote this thread is because I think people forget sometimes reguardless of his numerous mistakes he is a Boxing legend.

Certainly I would agree to that, you have already enumerated all the reasons why he should be. You are right irregardless what happened later he was once the one on top an had his glorious days as the No 1 top heavyweight.

[Truth]

www.Doghouseboxing.com article

From Doghouseboxing.com :http://www.doghouseboxing.com/DHB/Goodrich101604.htm

Mike Tyson (born Michael Gerard Tyson on June 30, 1966) made his professional debut on March 6, 1985 when he knocked out Hector Mercedes in one round. What ensued was the most exciting and electrifying heavyweight champion since Jack Dempsey. Tyson would go on to fight every other weekend on ESPN. For fighting aficionados, we were introduced to Michael Buffer ‘manning your battle stations’, and could not help but think he should have never replaced the loquacious Chuck Hull. In time, Buffer’s resonant and ridiculous shtick changed to ‘Let’s get ready to rumble’, and the rest is history. Tyson’s first claim to fame transpired on a national broadcast of ABC’s Wide World of Sports, as Jim Lampley and Alex Wallau called his 6th round knockout of Jesse Ferguson on February 16, 1986. Tyson soon challenged Trevor Berbick for the WBC heavyweight title. On November 11, 1986, he entered the ring with a record of 27-0, with 25 KO’s.

The mercurial and ferocious Tyson tore through Berbick, utterly destroying him in two rounds. What is often overlooked is the fact that Berbick had easily beaten Muhammad Ali himself, yet no one dare insinuate that he was in fact better than Ali. Oh, the good ole days when fight fans use to recognize that a great fighter always loses to good fighters when he is past his prime, does not train properly and takes his skill for granted, thinking that will alone is enough to win every fight. Tyson then defeated James ‘Bonecrusher’ Smith for the WBA heavyweight title on March 7, 1987. Tyson eventually beat Tony Tucker on August 1, 1987 for the IBF heavyweight title that Michael Spinks had vacated, after having beaten Larry Holmes, the linear champion, two years prior.

For the first time ever, one fighter held the WBA, WBC and IBF titles simultaneously. With the exception of traditional ‘lineal’ boxing purists, mainstream America agreed that Mike Tyson was the best heavyweight in the world, hence the era began of Tyson being ‘the baddest man on the planet’ (1986-1991). We all know that in short order, Tyson would usher in ‘the maddest man on the planet’ (1991-2001), and would ultimately find himself as ‘the saddest man on the planet’ (2001-present). However, for those who hate Mike Tyson - and just plain have an agenda to get their names in neon lights without reporting facts, and speaking truth - he has had signature, career defining wins over Tyrell Biggs (a former Gold medalist); Larry Holmes (a former WBC, IBF, world and lineal champion) and Tony Tubbs (a former WBA heavyweight titlist).

Yet, one thing eluded Mike Tyson. He was still not recognized as the undisputed lineal World Heavyweight Champion. When Tyson signed to fight Michael Spinks on June 27, 1988, most boxing writers picked Spinks in an upset. After Tyson beat the former light heavyweight and heavyweight champion into a near oblivion in just 91 seconds, two amazing things happened. One, Tyson was rightly considered one of the best heavyweight champions ever; and two, Spinks was not wrongly denigrated as being over hyped or overrated, but rather, just out punched and out sized. Tyson would lose his undisputed titles to James ‘Buster’ Douglas on a fateful February 11, 1990 evening in Tokyo, Japan. However, he had wins over heavyweight titlist Frank Bruno (twice), Bruce Seldon, and even former cruiserweight champion Orlin Norris that was ruled a 'no contest'.

Though Tyson’s official record stands 50-5, his two victories over Norris and Golota should reflect 52-5. That leaves us with three options. One, ignore his fifty victories; two, focus only on his five losses; or three, look at all of the accomplishments, achievements and attainments in his career, and then objectively evaluate his record. Tyson of course reclaimed the WBC and WBA heavyweight titles by beating Frank Bruno and Bruce Seldon, but still gets no credit whatsoever for doing so. This is in spite of the fact that Bruno beat Oliver McCall who beat Lennox Lewis; and Seldon beat Tony Tucker who claimed George Foreman’s vacant crown for refusing to fight his mandatory challenger. Simply put, Tyson was not responsible for having not beaten Foreman who was the technical ‘lineal champion’. He simply beat who he faced for the titles he won.

I have no problems saying Mike Tyson ceased to be a great fighter in 1991. His chaotic lifestyle, lack of training, managerial problems, promotional issues, personal demons, marital squabbles, ring defeat and bodily incarceration forever robbed him of the discipline, power, speed, balance and skill that Cus D’Amato had taught him. Yet, it is not fair to polarize ‘Iron’ Mike Tyson for losing to Evander Holyfield while the former was past his prime, and the latter obviously was not. Holyfield was a great fighter. In turn, it is no shame to lose to Lennox Lewis, when he was passing his prime in 2002. With the exception of Douglas and Williams, Tyson only lost to great fighters. Both had to beat him down for rounds of punishment that would have taken the fight out of any notable heavyweight boxer. Tyson often gave as well as he got, for as long as he could.

Yet, Mike Tyson is now judged on his losses to James Douglas and Danny Williams. Say what you will, but neither of these fighters would have lasted long with a prime 1986-1990 Mike Tyson. I doubt Lewis would have either. Simply put, you take the same Tyson who beat Spinks in 1988, and face him off against any other heavyweight champion - at their best, in their prime - and I wager he would have been the betting favorite. He would have given any heavyweight great fits, and that includes James Sullivan, Jim Corbett, Jack Johnson, Jack Dempsey, Rocky Marciano or Muhammad Ali. Again, bluntly put, when Tyson was in his prime, he was a great heavyweight champion.

Rather than looking at the fighter who is now a shell of his former self, I choose to remember this great fighter and bad person as a one-time great heavyweight champion who could have been one of the very best ever. Tyson was a money machine. He drew interest to the fight game. He made boxing as popular as the NFL. He owns six of the top ten all time pay-per-view sells. He was a household name in his prime. I recall ministers, teachers, policeman, fire fighters, sports fans, talk shows, politicians and the like all saying two words periodically throughout the years - Tyson fight. Be there, watch it, how long will it take before he knocks them out? Nobody, including Ali who said Tyson would have probably beaten him, believed Mike Tyson was overrated or over-hyped.

For those who doubt Mike Tyson’s one time greatness, simply ask yourselves who else lost a 42-1 prize fight? Who else opened a 25-1 favorite over Evander Holyfield? Who else is considered to have lost his titles in a greater, more shocking upset? For every one loss to a bad or mediocre fighter, Tyson has 45 such wins against the same class or caliber. For his three losses to great fighters, he likewise has equal wins in kind. I vividly recall hearing a sports celebrity recently state that Mike Tyson cannot be a great fighter because he never beat a great fighter. I suppose his signature victories over Larry Holmes and Michael Spinks are mere aberrations? Considering disqualification and injury, Tyson has only legitimately been beaten three times.

The fact is, Tyson was the first 'Alphabet Undisputed Heavyweight Champion'. He was and still is the youngest heavyweight champion in history. He won the WBA heavyweight title twice; the WBC heavyweight title twice; and the IBF heavyweight title once. He unified the heavyweight crown twice, and fought for it thrice. He made ten successful title defenses. He should no more be remembered for his losses than Muhammad Ali was for losing to Joe Frazier, Ken Norton, Leon Spinks, Larry Holmes and Trevor Berbick. The same hyperbole hypocrites who mock and scoff the name Mike Tyson only prove their ignorance. With the rare exception of Rocky Marciano, no other modern day heavyweight champion has ever retired undefeated.

[Truth]

An ode to past champions Tyson, Holyfield, Barrera, De La Hoya, Jones PT.2 Mike Tyson
From DoghouseBoxing.com By:Greg Goodrich
That, my friends, either means that other fighters were better than them when they lost; they did not properly train or were out of shape; or they lost because they were past their primes. Only in today’s society of ‘player hating’, ‘Monday morning quarterbacking’ and ‘revisionist history construction’, do we constantly reevaluate the worth, legitimacy and ability of our champions on a near event, year-by-year or occasion basis. I will deal with this thought in much greater detail in a subsequent article entitled The Boxing Bandwagon. Suffice it to say, not many heavyweight champions can legitimately argue that they never lost to a fighter that they faced.

We shouldn’t hold Mike Tyson to an impossible standard, one of which former great champions like Jack Johnson, Jack Dempsey and Ali are not held to. This is paramount bias and pseudo-subjectivism. Our opinions alone do not equate with reality. Great fighters can still be great even when they cease to even be good fighters past their prime. Such is the tainted legacy of Mike Tyson. Overlooking his many misdeeds - and even praying for his troubled and tormented soul - may even the harshest of ardent boxing critics at least acknowledge all the good he has done for the fight game. In his prime, he was great. Even now, he still flashes glimpses of being good. Oh to God that he were not so bad!

[Note: the following heavyweight champions retired undefeated: British Bare-knuckle Heavyweight Champions of England - Tom Lyons (1-0), Jack Fearns (1-0), Ben Brain (7-0-1) and Henry Pearce (6-0). American Bare-knuckle Heavyweight Champions of America: Tom Hyer (2-0) and Joe Coburn (4-0-3). American Queensbury Heavyweight Champion of the World (Police Gazette): Rocky Marciano (49-0).
http://www.doghouseboxing.com/DHB/Goodrich101604.htm

[semjasa]

It seems all anyone does in this world is kick someone while there down. All anyone does is focus on the negatives of Mike Tyson's career. Which is normal because there has been alot of negativity. But what about the positive?
-Youngest Heavyweight Champion of all time
-revived Boxing when it was down
-Gave fans great highlights to salavge for years
-Reguardless of outcomes he fought the best heavyweights available. Sure journeymen to,but he fought Holmes, Spinks, Holyfield twice and Lennox Lewis. (also Razor Rud**** wasn't a bad fighter.)
-He brought alot of excitement to Boxing, I think alot of people would agree with me that Mike Tyson fights are usually very exciting to watch.
Had Mike Tyson not have screwed up so much in the last 10+ years he could have been the greatest. The Mike Tyson story is kind of like the movie Scarface as far as the moral goes. To me the theme of Scarface is when you get to much to soon some people do not know ho handle it. Mike Tyson had to much to soon just like Scarface and he lost it all in the end. Mike Tyson should be a lesson to young fighters coming up, saying when you become successful be careful of the people around and the things you do. Reguardless of what happens with the rest of his career whether your a fan or you hate him Mike Tyson's impact on the sport will forever be wrote in the pages of Boxing history. Mike Tyson's legend will eventually reside in Canastota, New York at the Boxing Hall Of Fame. The reason I wrote this thread is because I think people forget sometimes reguardless of his numerous mistakes he is a Boxing legend.

Greatness is something thats earned, it doesnt last it needs constant topping up, Tyson was a great fighter never a great man. He is now a former champ and convicted sex offender if you choose to call him great thats your choice, but he isnt great in any decent humans mind........