Exactly how good is Vitali?

[guru]

I'm not so sure about that really (not the last comment obviously). When you look at George Foreman's infamous comeback, the HW division was in a similar stage of uncertainty as it is now, ie that there are still some good top fighters, but there was no strength in depth. And a far over the hill Foreman managed to cut his way towards the top of the division even winning a title. I wouldnt bet against that Foreman being able to pick up a title or two in the current heavyweight climate either...and Foreman wasnt even the best of his peak generation really.

yeah but foreman also lost to morrison, briggs and almost lost to shultz and alex stewart too.... and even foreman admitted he didnt wanna face lewis...

[.Mik.]

yeah but foreman also lost to morrison, briggs and almost lost to shultz and alex stewart too.... and even foreman admitted he didnt wanna face lewis...

True. The HW division was even stronger then than now. You've convinced me.

[mECHsLAVE]

I'm not so sure about that really (not the last comment obviously). When you look at George Foreman's infamous comeback, the HW division was in a similar stage of uncertainty as it is now, ie that there are still some good top fighters, but there was no strength in depth. And a far over the hill Foreman managed to cut his way towards the top of the division even winning a title. I wouldnt bet against that Foreman being able to pick up a title or two in the current heavyweight climate either...and Foreman wasnt even the best of his peak generation really.

Foreman in his comeback defeated nobody really, except Moorer. He got the fight with Moorer coming off of a loss to Morrison, remember- he couldn't even earn a legit shot. Foreman lost to the best fighters he faced besides Moorer- lost to Holyfield, Morrison, Briggs and Schultz (clear robbery). He got the Moorer win, which was impressive- especially for his age, but he didn't cut through the division, or whatever. He cherry-picked the Moorer fight, and that was pretty much that..

[.Mik.]

Foreman in his comeback defeated nobody really, except Moorer. He got the fight with Moorer coming off of a loss to Morrison, remember- he couldn't even earn a legit shot. Foreman lost to the best fighters he faced besides Moorer- lost to Holyfield, Morrison, Briggs and Schultz (clear robbery). He got the Moorer win, which was impressive- especially for his age, but he didn't cut through the division, or whatever. He cherry-picked the Moorer fight, and that was pretty much that..

To be fair, Moorer beat Holyfield and then Foreman beat him. Foreman also beat a pretty credible Cooney. He went 12 rounds with Holyfield. He lost to Morrison in a tough decision. Then, a good 25 years after his prime, he lost a hugely controversial bout (ok...a robbery) to a guy who now lays a claim to being a credible world champion.

That doesnt really speak volumes about the HW division today.

[Hydro]

To be fair, Moorer beat Holyfield and then Foreman beat him. Foreman also beat a pretty credible Cooney. He went 12 rounds with Holyfield. He lost to Morrison in a tough decision. Then, a good 25 years after his prime, he lost a hugely controversial bout (ok...a robbery) to a guy who now lays a claim to being a credible world champion.

That doesnt really speak volumes about the HW division today.

Cooney hadn't fought in 3 years.

Foreman's comeback was impressive because of his age, but his opposition was very selective.

The Briggs decision was terrible.

[.Mik.]

He was still a dangerous heavy weight cos of his big punch.

I'm not claiming that Foreman tore through the division and dominated or anything, but when he was able to come back as a 45 year old man who had barely fought in 20 years and be robbed against people who are now seen as being genuine top heavyweights...it tells you how crap this division is and as such, demonstrates that Vitali is just the top of a bad bunch.

[mECHsLAVE]

To be fair, Moorer beat Holyfield and then Foreman beat him. Foreman also beat a pretty credible Cooney. He went 12 rounds with Holyfield. He lost to Morrison in a tough decision. Then, a good 25 years after his prime, he lost a hugely controversial bout (ok...a robbery) to a guy who now lays a claim to being a credible world champion.

That doesnt really speak volumes about the HW division today.

Credible Cooney? Lost a tough decision to Morrison? What are you smoking? LOL

Have you seen the Morrison fight? It was a clear loss, not even close. The Briggs decision was bad, but it evens out with the gift Foreman got against Schultz.

I'm not even sure what the point of your posts about Foreman are, exactly. A guy who has the natural power of Foreman, given enough chances, is of course going to get a big win eventually. And he was given a ton of chances, and never really earned his shots at anything, and when he had to defend the title he was saved by a gift decision, then stripped when he wouldn't give him a rematch. It was impressive because of his age, and if you gave him a shot at 5 of today's top heavyweights, when he was 45, he'd probably beat one of them now, too. And also in the 80's.

My point is that the HW division today is not nearly as bad as everyone is making it out to be. Not sure what Foreman's comeback has to do with that.

[.Mik.]

Credible Cooney? Lost a tough decision to Morrison? What are you smoking? LOL

Have you seen the Morrison fight? It was a clear loss, not even close. The Briggs decision was bad, but it evens out with the gift Foreman got against Schultz.

I'm not even sure what the point of your posts about Foreman are, exactly. A guy who has the natural power of Foreman, given enough chances, is of course going to get a big win eventually. And he was given a ton of chances, and never really earned his shots at anything, and when he had to defend the title he was saved by a gift decision, then stripped when he wouldn't give him a rematch. It was impressive because of his age, and if you gave him a shot at 5 of today's top heavyweights, when he was 45, he'd probably beat one of them now, too. And also in the 80's.

My point is that the HW division today is not nearly as bad as everyone is making it out to be. Not sure what Foreman's comeback has to do with that.

I wasnt suggesting that the decision against Foreman for Morrison was tough. I was referring to the fight being tough and using the word 'decision' to indicate the length of the fight, ie that he took him the full distance.

You cant claim a puncher like Cooney to not be credible and then in your next breath say that Foreman was BOUND to be able to get a big win cos of his 'natural power'. Cooney was significantly younger than Foreman, had a big punch. He was a credible opponent for Foreman at that time.

I was using the Foreman comeback at the age of 45 to put into perspective how average today's HW division is in comparison to that of the 70's. Foreman at 45 still took a few defeats during his comeback, I think that if that same Foreman came back now...he'd take even fewer defeats. He'd probably be a genuine title-holder.

The Heavy Weight division at this moment is dreadful, I dont see how you can defend it.

[Leo Pradun]

Vitali Klitschko has the heart and chin of a warrior and will fight till he cant anymore that is what makes him such a good fighter and now he has a chance to answer the big questionthat was asked of him before he retired. Wladimir on the other hand is softer and has a tendancy to crumble under big pressure but has a lot more technical skill then his brother and the way hes fighting hes looking unstoppable. I think we will see the Klitschko brothers dominate the division for awhile and this is going to set up superights...

[mECHsLAVE]

I wasnt suggesting that the decision against Foreman for Morrison was tough. I was referring to the fight being tough and using the word 'decision' to indicate the length of the fight, ie that he took him the full distance.

You cant claim a puncher like Cooney to not be credible and then in your next breath say that Foreman was BOUND to be able to get a big win cos of his 'natural power'. Cooney was significantly younger than Foreman, had a big punch. He was a credible opponent for Foreman at that time.

I was using the Foreman comeback at the age of 45 to put into perspective how average today's HW division is in comparison to that of the 70's. Foreman at 45 still took a few defeats during his comeback, I think that if that same Foreman came back now...he'd take even fewer defeats. He'd probably be a genuine title-holder.

The Heavy Weight division at this moment is dreadful, I dont see how you can defend it.

"You think if" Exactly. Foreman had one significant win in a shot that he didn't earn. Moorer would be KO'd by Wlad inside of 6 rounds, at any stage of his career. Moorer would be KO'd by Vitali. Moorer would probably be KO'd by Valuev.

Foreman would have gotten some significant wins if you could time machine him at age 45 into any era and let him cherry pick big fights and keep giving him chances. But against today's HW's, he'd have only a puncher's chance against most. He could certainly beat Maskaev, who couldn't. But he'd have a time with some others. Toney would win an easy decision over him. Wlad would probably TKO him from eyes swollen shut. etc