How Much Impact....

[K-DOGG]

do the losses at the end of a fighters career have on his greatness compared to ones suffered early on? Being that boxing fans and critics alike can disregard a fighter after a significant loss, what about losses suffered towards the end of a career? Are those just as credible?

Losses very early in a fighter's career are important from the aspect of how well the fighter rebounds from those setbacks.

Losses late in a fighter's career have little to no impact at all on his legacy IMO.

However, victories late in a fighter's caereer over significan opposistion do add to his legacy....kind of like how senority can help you at a job, I guess. A win later in a fighter's career, after he's lost some speed, timing, reflexes, etc only enhances how great a fighter he is, because he's overcoming the huge obsticle of Father Time and high mileage.

Examples would be Larry Holmes win over Ray Mercer and Hopkins win over Tarver....and Duran's win over Barkley.

[abdiel2k3]

I wanted to bring this up 'cause I recognize the guys Ali, Duran, Robinson, etc. But it just wild how say.... Roy Jones losses will be beside him probably forever, but Oscar De la Hoya losses seem like they don't count. Maybe it's just me.

o they count
the ones that arent tainted
like mosely 1
but all his other ones have that "however" aspect that excuses the loss
he lost to tito HOWEVER most felt he was robbed or inadvertently gave it away
he lost to mosley in the rematch HOWEVER most feel that was also a robbery
then the final one he lost to hopkins HOWEVER he was attempting the impossible a fighter who started at 135 challengin the 160 champ who hadnt lost in nealry a decade

[K-DOGG]

You mention Larry Holmes, and Bernard Hopkins they had to believe they could win those fights right? I mean, if a fighter is shot, he has to know it right? Like Holyfield, everyone thinks he should hang it up. But he continues on. Is he hoping to win another title? Or does he really think he has some left in the tank?

Ali thought he could beat Holmes and Holyfield does believe he can still do it....for whatever that's worth.

[Hydro]

You mention Larry Holmes, and Bernard Hopkins they had to believe they could win those fights right? I mean, if a fighter is shot, he has to know it right? Like Holyfield, everyone thinks he should hang it up. But he continues on. Is he hoping to win another title? Or does he really think he has some left in the tank?

Holyfield is delusional.

He thinks he can unify all the belts.

How long would that take? He'd be like 50 and have 10 more kids by the time that would all clear up!

[Mr. Ryan]

Ali thought he could beat Holmes and Holyfield does believe he can still do it....for whatever that's worth.

Up until that bull**** thyroid medicine that the Herbert Muhammad's quack gave him that started messing with his metabolic system. Before the fight, Howard Bingham said that he was going to bet it all on Ali, and Ali himself said don't, something is wrong.

[K-DOGG]

Up until that bull**** thyroid medicine that the Herbert Muhammad's quack gave him that started messing with his metabolic system. Before the fight, Howard Bingham said that he was going to bet it all on Ali, and Ali himself said don't, something is wrong.

Yeah. The whole thing saddens me a great deal even to this day. I don't think a 38 year old Ali would have beaten Holmes without the thorazine, because he was also taking "el dopa" for his parkinsons syndrone; but it wouldn't have ended like it did. And who knows? With Ali, who had sparred countless rounds with Holmes and knew him so well, without letting Holmes truly "know" him in the sparring sessions due to his voluntary clowning and such, maybe he did know something. If there was a plan he had that would have made it closer and maybe even earned him a slim victory, it would have revolved around Holmes vulnerability to the right cross IMO....that and the movement.

In the one round when Ali actually got on his toes and faintly resembled himself, the 8th, you could envision the kind of problems Holmes would have had with a mobile Ali whose jab was on.

Could he have done it had he not been on the thorazine? We'll honestly never know.

[Mr. Ryan]

Yeah. The whole thing saddens me a great deal even to this day. I don't think a 38 year old Ali would have beaten Holmes without the thorazine, because he was also taking "el dopa" for his parkinsons syndrone; but it wouldn't have ended like it did. And who knows? With Ali, who had sparred countless rounds with Holmes and knew him so well, without letting Holmes truly "know" him in the sparring sessions due to his voluntary clowning and such, maybe he did know something. If there was a plan he had that would have made it closer and maybe even earned him a slim victory, it would have revolved around Holmes vulnerability to the right cross IMO....that and the movement.

In the one round when Ali actually got on his toes and faintly resembled himself, the 8th, you could envision the kind of problems Holmes would have had with a mobile Ali whose jab was on.

Could he have done it had he not been on the thorazine? We'll honestly never know.

Nah, when Ali got on his toes, the second the jabs started coming again from Holmes, Ali was immobilized. There was no way in hell a 38 Ali wins that fight. Only way he wins that fight is if a black and white Cassius Clay entered the ring, outfeinted and boxed Holmes, and shook up the world with a decision. Other than that, total mismatch.

[American_Ninja]

They say you're only as good as your last fight. Ali is one of the exceptions. Tyson has become a laughing stock due to his last fight.
It just depends on who the fighter is.

[K-DOGG]

Nah, when Ali got on his toes, the second the jabs started coming again from Holmes, Ali was immobilized. There was no way in hell a 38 Ali wins that fight. Only way he wins that fight is if a black and white Cassius Clay entered the ring, outfeinted and boxed Holmes, and shook up the world with a decision. Other than that, total mismatch.

More than likely, you are right; but Ali was supposedly in really good shape prior to taking the thorazine. All you have to do to get an idea of how much he was deteriorated because of that drug is look at the Berbick fight when he was overweight; but still a better fighter than he was against Holmes.

If you get a chance to read Bill Ross's expose on what went on behind the scenes prior to Holmes-Ali, do it. It's a very informative read.

For the record, I think the only difference would have been a more competitive Ali losing a Unanimous decision instead of what we saw.

[Mr. Ryan]

More than likely, you are right; but Ali was supposedly in really good shape prior to taking the thorazine. All you have to do to get an idea of how much he was deteriorated because of that drug is look at the Berbick fight when he was overweight; but still a better fighter than he was against Holmes.

If you get a chance to read Bill Ross's expose on what went on behind the scenes prior to Holmes-Ali, do it. It's a very informative read.

For the record, I think the only difference would have been a more competitive Ali losing a Unanimous decision instead of what we saw.

I don't think there was any way he was going the distance with Holmes, Holmes was too fast and too young. It was really sad to see that happen to a great fighter. In the Berbick fight, I actually thought he was winning early, but in all honesty Berbick wasn't much to speak of as far as being an athlete. Ali couldn't take the body shots all night, total nightmare once again. Ali was in better shape statistically against Holmes, but that was a product of the medicine and not legitimate fitness. He couldn't even run before the fight.