What criteria makes an "ATG"? Specific as possible

[BattlingNelson]

I aware of the difference Batts, I was just yanking your chain lol. Irony is hard to convey sometimes. Your point is well taken. I mean My feeling is judging ATG takes experience and eventually we all do it correctly, at least essentially correctly. That is the power of consensus.

I don't personally have a problem giving the HOF to more watered down criteria, as long as people understand the difference you enunciated above.

lol

I agree. Well put.

[Marchegiano]

As a long time history teacher, and one who has written a number of works on academia you got some karma from me, and I wanted to bold your whole opening paragraph as agreeing with it. I got into it with some at work the other day, to which I concluded with them saying "the path to mediocrity is paved with best practices" (which I think echoes the sentiment you are writing with).

Moreover, just because someone is deemed top in their field doesnt make them infallible; heck Bill Belichick has lost over 250 times as a head coach so I guess being the best doesnt make you right all the time.

I very much appreciate it.

[HOUDINI563]

The ability to fight hard and not quit no matter what is top criteria.

Cleverness
Speed
The ability to take punishment.
The ability to land crushing blows.
Conditioning
The ability to bring together both offense and defense and use both seamlessly.

[billeau2]

The ability to fight hard and not quit no matter what is top criteria.

Cleverness
Speed
The ability to take punishment.
The ability to land crushing blows.
Conditioning
The ability to bring together both offense and defense and use both seamlessly.

Again, just playing devil's advocate to keep things lively. You could probably find strevedores who could take punishment. Yet some site this feature as making Dempsey remarkable.

Interesting that these criteria are specific...How much difference is there in cleverness, speed, conditioning, from the best fighter at the time and the worse professional? How much is learned rather than coached?

I mean... the difference between the greatness of Ali, versus any other fighter might be very small, yet might make the difference between greatness and simply being able to make the ranks...

[Ca$ual Fan]

How about overcoming toughest adversaries and defying odds? Does that add up to the category?

[HOUDINI563]

Dempsey is an ATG not just because he was very tough. He checked all those boxes.

[BKM-]

it is not even slightly debatable, because that is the criteria historians use

name the heavyweight you consider that criteria does not apply to?

this will be the answer...

that criteria DOES apply to him, you simply do not understand the boxing landscape at that point in time

there is almost nobody who posts on this site who is truly qualified to make those calls, that would take a huge commitment and dedication... historians do the homework... understand the boxing landscape at that point in time... and are worth their weight in gold... the average fan cannot be mentioned in the same sentence, including most hardcore fans

well i don't know about all that... Can yu name any ATG who Dempsey, Liston, Holmes beat at prime? we can start there...

You both make good points. I have also always placed the most importance on who did you beat? To be considered great.

But I have talked about this in the past with billeau2 that if you really look at it, there are actually not that many ATG HW's who defeated an ATG who was in his prime.

[billeau2]

You both make good points. I, like aboutfntime, have always placed the most importance on who did you beat? To be considered great.

But I have talked about this in the past with billeau2 that if you really look at it, there are actually not that many ATG HW's who defeated an ATG who was in his prime.

I could reach out and kiss you man!! lol. Finally someone understands and acknowledges this point. I just noticed it one day... It intrigues me. I brought it up and since that time? until now? no one has acknowledged it. I have been accused of all kinds of things though...

Regarding aboutftime... Let me just state: Anything you see outside of this thread is tongue in cheek... I do not believe you can destroy someone in the dome lol. And of course I did not meet anyone claiming to be a member here...I put a thread up in the Dome because the p rick put something in the lounge, when it should have gone in the dome.

I did put aboutftime briefly on ignore because he just came in this thread taking names... still do not know why he did that, he is actually a poster I am fond of... again tongue in cheek, with the caveat he really came in to the thread in Bellend mode lol.

And... You want to insult me, fine... Not going to mention names here, But there are certain members here that we are damn lucky to have... members who have been in the know for many years and demonstrate real wisdom... That includes those who comment, and those who have actually fought...

I have actually fought and have a very good idea about what it feels like to learn how to fight... Anyone who has done it professionally has my respect.

Just wanted to clear that up.

[billeau2]

How about overcoming toughest adversaries and defying odds? Does that add up to the category?

"defying odds" has not been mentioned... It definitely applies to Ali! Im sure it applies to others, but what I like about this quality you mention is that it gives us a lense to really see how great Ali was. The guy defied the odds numerous times! Vegas lost money on Ali lol!

[thebrownbomber_]

This seems to be the criteria most agreed upon. My problem is when we look closely at it we have to account for different divisons, there are differences in the level of competition. But it makes sense... For example, if we look at Lewis, he took on all commers, even forgoing a silly mandatory with Ruiz to do so...

The thing about Heavyweights is that most heavy weight ATGs never beat another ATG in the latters prime. When this is the case, we have to see the competiton level beat.