Who would you say impacated boxing more Dempsey or Jack Johnson?

[Willie Pep 229]

I'm not saying it makes him right. I'm saying it shows a double standard when you don't throw Dempsey under the bus for busting his Wife's jaw. Or being her pimp. Or using bicycle tape to cut up Willard. Maybe they were both scumbags

Did you hear the one about Dempsey being unaware that his ex-wife was a **********? Yet he apparently lived with her in a "house of ill-repute."



Being a poor vaudeville performer wouldn't make him an ass-hole. lol.

I thought I just did throw Dempsey under the bus!

I don't believe the loaded gloves story; I do believe the involvement with prostitution.

Johnson wasn't a "poor" performer, I said he repeatedly appeared unprepared and disinterested for his performances. The French crowd, after giving ample opportunity to step up, got tired of being fleeced by a con artist who wasn't trying. There is a difference.

[Willie Pep 229]

So it's Johnson's fault that other black fighters weren't given an earned shot at the heavyweight championship?


Sometimes I feel like I'm in the twilight Zone on this site.

That's a maybe, his behavior certainly didn't help matter much, now did it?

But if you're one of those who wants his history simple, you're right I must be in the Twilight Zone for refusing to haul water for the CW.

Continue to believe only the side of the story that fits your agenda, life is simpler that way. It's certainly the current manner of things.

[travestyny]

I thought I just did throw Dempsey under the bus!

I don't believe the loaded gloves story; I do believe the involvement with prostitution.

Johnson wasn't a "poor" performer, I said he repeatedly appeared unprepared and disinterested for his performances. The French crowd, after giving ample opportunity to step up, got tired of being fleeced by a con artist who wasn't trying. There is a difference.

Come on, man. The vaudeville stuff is just reaching for something to complain about. If you give a poor performance, get booed, and aren't invited back, that should be enough. Just seems like a molehill to me.

You don't believe the loaded wraps story, though It came from his own trainer who wrapped his hands and who has never had any type of falling out with Dempsey. The dude straight up stated what he did. On more than one occasion he said what he did, while Dempsey was alive I believe (pretty sure the quotation regarding this is from 1920. He was still Dempsey's trainer). Never was there any type of refutation.

[Marchegiano]

I think Johnson.

I don't think it matters so much how the fallout played out. There's about 25 years between Jim Johnson fighting Jack for the title and Joe Louis, the very next black challenger given an opportunity. You can say because of Jack. What you can't claim is his impact is difficult to see.

I don't think it matters if your think breaking through did more for black men than the drought held them back or not as long as you recognize JJ's breaking through caused a real hate for black fighters while his name being used by them in that era serves as proof of their respect and admiration for the champion.

Unlike Dempsey, who is loved in his era one-sidedly, JJ is a two sided coin. He carries the admiration and love of a race, world wide, and the hate and disrespect of a majority in a nation that controls boxing.

I don't think there are as many Dempsey's as there are Johnson's and I know there is more hate for Johnson than Dempsey ever received.

Seems pretty clear, Dempsey's love can't compete with Jack's hate.

"white champions"

"white hopes"

Smidgen more impact than "Gee boss I sure like Jack and will try to box kinda like 'em"

To be honest,

Figg
Broughton
Mendoza
Molyneaux
Fuller
Sullivan
Johnson
Louis

The only names you need to explain how boxing went from bare knuckle inspired by dug up greek nonsense to modern boxing as you see it today.

You don't need Dempsey because all Dempsey really did was be popular. There isn't even an industry advent in his story, they just did better than the guys who came up with things like how to sell a fight.

Johnson you need because he begins the end of the colorline. We all know gans came first, we also all know no one gave any ****s about LW and thats why Gans was allowed to get that title. Don't even need him to explain the end of the colorline. You do Louis and you do Johnson.

Selling fights? Nothing invented since Mendoza.

Molyneaux starts the colorline.

Fuller brings sparring into training

Sullivan and co are the first to take advantage of infrastructure

Most I can give Dempsey is they capitalized off the popularization of the automobile and golden 20's economy very well. Not really a new trick because Sullivan, Mendoza, Molnyeaux, Broughton, and Figg kinda already did all the **** Leo and Tex got up to. Even going around giving the colored champions a trinket is something that goes back to Mendoza and Molyneaux.


Kinda hard for me to see Dempsey as impactful based solely on "look at how loved him were". Lots of dudes were loved, Johnson was loved, the guys with real impact did more than be loved.

[travestyny]

So it's Johnson's fault that other black fighters weren't given an earned shot at the heavyweight championship?


Sometimes I feel like I'm in the twilight Zone on this site.

lol. You aren't the only one!

[Willie Pep 229]

Come on, man. The vaudeville stuff is just reaching for something to complain about. If you give a poor performance, get booed, and aren't invited back, that should be enough. Just seems like a molehill to me.

You don't believe the loaded wraps story, though It came from his own trainer who wrapped his hands and who has never had any type of falling out with Dempsey. The dude straight up stated what he did. On more than one occasion he said what he did, while Dempsey was alive I believe (pretty sure the quotation regarding this is from 1920. He was still Dempsey's trainer). Never was there any type of refutation.

You're refusing to hear what I am saying about his Vaudeville act. You're making excuses.

The two sources of Dempsey's loaded gloves come from a manager (Kearns) and a trainer who had been cut out of the picture before the big Tunney money. Find that trainer making his claim before he was dismissed.

Find below, Dempsey's wraps before the Willard fight. The gloves were placed on the fighters hands in the ring, how did everyone miss the supposed bicycle tape?



P.S. Indecently Dempsey's wraps have a very modern look to them; I have said before I think he had an advantage over Willard, because properly wraps hands brings more power.

[Willie Pep 229]

lol. You aren't the only one!

Cheap shot T, thanks!

[travestyny]

You're refusing to hear what I am saying about his Vaudeville act. You're making excuses.

The two sources of Dempsey's loaded gloves come from a manager (Kearns) and a trainer who had been cut out of the picture before the big Tunney money. Find that trainer making his claim before he was dismissed.

Find below, Dempsey's wraps before the Willard fight. The gloves were placed on the fighters hands in the ring, how did everyone miss the supposed bicycle tape?



P.S. Indecently Dempsey's wraps have a very modern look to them; I have said before I think he had an advantage over Willard, because properly wraps hands brings more power.

Why is it that every time this comes up, you guys deflect to Kearns talking about plaster.


That is NOT what I'm referring to. I'm referring to this statement in 1920 by the man who wrapped his hands....who was currently his trainer and STILL his trainer thereafter.

“When I handled Kid McCoy I used to bandage his hands with a certain kind of adhesive tape. As soon as McCoy drew on the gloves, the tape hardened and, as a result, he was able to inflict unusual punishment. I wound Dempsey's hands with the same kind of bandages, which Willard inspected. The story that Dempsey wore aluminum pads over his knuckles is a lie. His bandages became hardened, no doubt, and that was why he cut Willard's face to ribbons.”

https://www.nytimes.com/1964/02/09/a...the-times.html

Check out the book, The Magnificent Rube, which 'coincidentally' gives this eyewitness account.

When the Marines finally departed there was another delay while a fresh canvas was laid in the ring. Willard had heard that the canvas from his opponent's training-camp ring was being used and demanded at the last moment that another be substituted.

While this was being done, his handlers were watching Dempsey wind yards of heavy bicycle tape around and around his fists, without protesting.
https://archive.org/stream/magnifice...41mbp_djvu.txt

[travestyny]

Cheap shot T, thanks!

What are you talking about? That wasn't aimed at you. I was agreeing that sometimes this place is like the twilight zone. Don't get all sensitive on me, brotha.

[Slimpack]

I'd say both, but to me Johnson is the main man- one of the HW pioneers. We have to give respect to someone like him that drew so much crowd to the sport. The Galveston Giant made so many get interested in boxing as a sport. For the black community in the US, he was a hero of the Jim Crow era, when many thought people of colour couldn't do anything great. He sets the precedent that other boxing Greats follows.