Who would you take, bruce lee vs. Tyson

[ShoulderRoll]

Ok lets break all these points down because they are addressing different things. Ill go in order:

The main thing about karate is that you generate a tremendous amount of force that is not seen. Now when an untrained individual looks at a grappling match, they see two guys rolling around and little else. As a matter of fact, up until the 80's when the Gracies came here, no one even thought a grappler would do well in a fight against a man who used striking as an expert. its the same thing with this fighting.

a) it is, for all practical purposes full contact to the body. Did you know that in that tape of the 1968 tourney Burleson and the Korean stylist had broken bones? they fought through it... Do you know what it does on the street when you break a man's ribs? Unfortunately I hit a big guy, lightly... and cracked his ribs. He went down like a gravity deprived thang and I Didn't believe him. Xrays confirmed... It looked like I tapped him. Because of the way striking works in the old systems (I hit him with a Ju Jutsu strike).

b) you stop and start because technically IF you hit with full force and catch, the fight is over... For example,



I guarantee if we watched this guy use that shuto with no target, every Tom **** and Harry would have a good laugh. Thing is? the guy was grounded and threw a half decent shuto strike, no kick boxing, no bouncing... sORRY ABOUT the pathological hatred of bouncing. Notice how he does not get into a back and fourth with the pimp. he never even allows the pimp to square up does he? He does not bounce around, or contest the pimp in a contest of skill...He hits with a shuto, not a great one, but good enough. thats how a martial art handles a situation like this.

You cannot compare kick boxing with Muay Thai... You can compare karate to muay Thai. Both arts, when you watch how they are represented in the Gracie tourneys and totally misrepresented. No licensed Muay Thai fighter has, to my knowledge fought a Gracie in any tournament. Kick boxers can never be as good at boxing, or karate, doing an art that does things that violate principles.

I understand your point about continuity. Its unfortunately a point that real martial artists have a different take upon. When it comes down to a fight, I do not want to get into a back and fourth at all. I will do everything in my power to not do so...it is risky. You are right that real fights can continue, but have you ever watched things like:

a) One guy is beating the other guy and mounts him, the guy being mounted, feeling desperate and life threatened, pulls out a knife and stabs the "winner" in the kidneys...winner winner, no chicken dinner (casket though). Fairbained watched this happen almost every time an honour fight happened in Vietnam where he was stationed.

b) Your body moves and acts very differently when you are fighting for your life... Think of it this way, you confront me about calling you a "pufter." No problem, your good...throw a jab, or two and bust my face a bit... fight over. your the boxer, and you have the skills... Now, I am twice your size, and am threatening to take your kid and **** him/her and I mean it! Do you think you will casually throw a few jabs to bust my face open?

Here is what will happen shoulder roll and I guarantee this, as far as I can without pulling rank (this is the kind of stuff I teach to defend against)... Your azz will pucker, you will get insanely angry, you will get very weak and shaky only to find that when you say to yourself "I don't give a fvk this mf is going down" you will get insanely strong. You will probably look more like those karate point fighters as you move towards the target and look to take it out as fast as you can...

In this type of confrontation you will go on autopilot and there will be no sense of eleborate ring strategies, any jab you do throw will be like a pole ax, and if someone grabs you? you will probably try to bite them, break their fingers, pick up a weapon, etc.

karate developed as a means of self defense and the Japanese turned it into a sport, a means of self development. But it was never designed to be a ring fighting system. The movement style is all wrong.

When shit hits the fan and your azz puckers who will have the better chance of surviving? The guy that is betting everything on the perfect one shot, one kill strike to work under stress?

Or the guy who is used to following up with combinations regardless of whether or not his first strike is succesful?

Joe Lewis was arguably the greatest karate fighter America ever produced. I'll let him explain why point fighting left a bad taste in his mouth and made him disgusted, and why it was inferior to full contact arts like boxing:

[billeau2]

When shit hits the fan and your azz puckers who will have the better chance of surviving? The guy that is betting everything on the perfect one shot, one kill strike to work under stress?

Or the guy who is used to following up with combinations regardless of whether or not his first strike is succesful?

Joe Lewis was arguably the greatest karate fighter America ever produced. I'll let him explain why point fighting left a bad taste in his mouth and made him disgusted, and why it was inferior to full contact arts like boxing:

Oh believe me... I know how Lewis felt, just disagree with him 100. Interesting irony here... Race was sort of a factor in the mad rush to kick boxing. The African American stylists, like my teacher and his teacher Riley Hawkins, Arnold Mitchell, LaPuppet, etc... were some of the best fighters out there... You do not hear about them as much. they never needed to create kick boxing to fight full contact Shoulder... You fought with your art and just got ****** up. Pain was a great teacher. We fought full contact and continuously...

Irony continued: Riley's skills and tactics were actually taught to the Okinawans. Some modifications came from boxing movements...But nothing that changed the nature of the art and the movement dynamics.

You don't get it about a life and death struggle... No you do not throw combinations the way you strategize in the ring... You hit so that each shot is your best shot. Your mind is in a different place. If you are punching, combinations, or otherwise, you are punching to put his face on the other side of his skull... its a different mind set and it changes how your body responds to commands.

For example, want to know how it feels to control your body when fighting for your life? get drunk as you can... then try to control subtle body movements. first thing that happens is you get tunnel vision, things happen slooooowllllly, feels like your in a dream... Your mind is saying "this isn't happening" and then it reacts. But you lose the ability to do anything that requires a lot of fine movement. Thats why combat arts don't look like ring fighting. They use big footwork with small movements trained in and they use postures that keep you alive...

For example, look at the old boxing stance, how the elbows are turned in and the hands are held so you are looking at your palms...because that position protects your arterial system from blade cuts. boxing came from real fighting initially before it developed in its own way. Little things like that... As silly as it is for some of these guys who think they can get in a ring and fight against someone who trains exclusively for the ring... it is as silly, and more deadly to think fighting in the ring is the same skill set that will protect you in a real situation where weapons, and random circumstances are involved.

[ShoulderRoll]

You don't get it about a life and death struggle... No you do not throw combinations the way you strategize in the ring... You hit so that each shot is your best shot. Your mind is in a different place. If you are punching, combinations, or otherwise, you are punching to put his face on the other side of his skull... its a different mind set and it changes how your body responds to commands.

For example, want to know how it feels to control your body when fighting for your life? get drunk as you can... then try to control subtle body movements. first thing that happens is you get tunnel vision, things happen slooooowllllly, feels like your in a dream... Your mind is saying "this isn't happening" and then it reacts. But you lose the ability to do anything that requires a lot of fine movement. Thats why combat arts don't look like ring fighting. They use big footwork with small movements trained in and they use postures that keep you alive...

For example, look at the old boxing stance, how the elbows are turned in and the hands are held so you are looking at your palms...because that position protects your arterial system from blade cuts. boxing came from real fighting initially before it developed in its own way. Little things like that... As silly as it is for some of these guys who think they can get in a ring and fight against someone who trains exclusively for the ring... it is as silly, and more deadly to think fighting in the ring is the same skill set that will protect you in a real situation where weapons, and random circumstances are involved.

I hate to pull rank on you but Joe Lewis was as good as it gets among karate fighters.

And as he said: point karate required you to stop the blows inches from the target or make just very slight contact. Back in the 60s and 70s there were guys winning fights based on just waving their hands at you.

If that's what you train to do then that is what is going to come out under stress.

Much like that story you hear in martial arts circles about a guy disarming a mugger who was wielding a knife...then handing the knife right back to him reflexively. Because that was what he always did when practicing techniques in class. It had become a habit.

The more realistic your training the better off you will be. There's too much that is unrealistic about point karate.

[billeau2]

I hate to pull rank on you but Joe Lewis was as good as it gets among karate fighters.

And as he said: point karate required you to stop the blows inches from the target or make just very slight contact. Back in the 60s and 70s there were guys winning fights based on just waving their hands at you.

If that's what you train to do then that is what is going to come out under stress.

Much like that story you hear in martial arts circles about a guy disarming a mugger who was wielding a knife...then handing the knife right back to him reflexively. Because that was what he always did when practicing techniques in class. It had become a habit.

The more realistic your training the better off you will be. There's too much that is unrealistic about point karate.

Joe Lewis was the most popular not nearly the best. Riley Hawkins would have beat him from pillar to post and back to baltimore again...so would most of the old school Avengers and Assasins (two clubs who dojo stormed in Baltimore I was an assasin lol). I bet you could not even tell me why he was considered so good Come on shoulder!! Make this fun, what was it about the man that made him stand out? and I am saying this laughing, not trying to really be a bellend here lol. But if you could do so..... I have my dish of crow here waiting!

Did you see guys pulling punches in the vides I showed you? Lewis was tainted, he wanted kick boxing to evolve... and as I explained, point fighting gets all mixed up. the term itself comes from Ippon, one strike. The idea to make one strike destroy the opponent in a series of kata like sequences. It does not come from points...

Yes we fight the way we train, absolutely. which is why a boxer will box better in a ring than anyone else. My compliments on the knife example, it is a good one, have used it many times myself.

[billeau2]

I hate to pull rank on you but Joe Lewis was as good as it gets among karate fighters.

And as he said: point karate required you to stop the blows inches from the target or make just very slight contact. Back in the 60s and 70s there were guys winning fights based on just waving their hands at you.

If that's what you train to do then that is what is going to come out under stress.

Much like that story you hear in martial arts circles about a guy disarming a mugger who was wielding a knife...then handing the knife right back to him reflexively. Because that was what he always did when practicing techniques in class. It had become a habit.

The more realistic your training the better off you will be. There's too much that is unrealistic about point karate.

Theres something else really important here: You have to be put to trauma...real trauma where you are literally scared for your safety to train in that zone. Its not fun, and its tramatic, but that is the real way to understand that feeling and what your body can read from your brain, at that point.

Also most people thought Wallace was better. He beat Louis in your kick boxing and was undefeated.

[ShoulderRoll]

Joe Lewis was the most popular not nearly the best. Riley Hawkins would have beat him from pillar to post and back to baltimore again...so would most of the old school Avengers and Assasins (two clubs who dojo stormed in Baltimore I was an assasin lol). I bet you could not even tell me why he was considered so good Come on shoulder!! Make this fun, what was it about the man that made him stand out? and I am saying this laughing, not trying to really be a bellend here lol. But if you could do so..... I have my dish of crow here waiting!

Did you see guys pulling punches in the vides I showed you? Lewis was tainted, he wanted kick boxing to evolve... and as I explained, point fighting gets all mixed up. the term itself comes from Ippon, one strike. The idea to make one strike destroy the opponent in a series of kata like sequences. It does not come from points...

Yes we fight the way we train, absolutely. which is why a boxer will box better in a ring than anyone else. My compliments on the knife example, it is a good one, have used it many times myself.

Joe Lewis won 11 consecutive grand championships without a loss. That's why he was so good.

And I would venture to say that the West Coast martial arts scene he was a part of was superior to the East Coast scene at the time. That's where Chuck Norris, Mike Stone, Ed Parker, Steve Sanders a.k.a Steve Mohammed of the Black Karate Federation, Benny Urquidez etc. were all based out of.

The videos you posted speak for themselves. You say that karate is closer to Muay Thai than kickboxing is, but I say no way. Two of those arts look quite similar to each other while the third sticks out like a sore thumb.

[billeau2]

Joe Lewis won 11 consecutive grand championships without a loss. That's why he was so good.

And I would venture to say that the West Coast martial arts scene he was a part of was superior to the East Coast scene at the time. That's where Chuck Norris, Mike Stone, Ed Parker, Steve Sanders a.k.a Steve Mohammed of the Black Karate Federation, Benny Urquidez etc. were all based out of.

The videos you posted speak for themselves. You say that karate is closer to Muay Thai than kickboxing is, but I say no way. Two of those arts look quite similar to each other while the third sticks out like a sore thumb.

The West Coast is just more well known... You would have to trust me on that one being part of both communities at various times, and I understand your arguing a point and that would be a concession, thats cool. Also your mixing up things Shoulder. For example, Parker was never a fighter... Never fought in the tourneys. Interesting teacher, quick big man.

I will tell you why lewis was so highly regarded and it has nothing to do with his winning at kick boxing. Wallace was better in that rhealm and was never beat because no one could get past his round kick... Thats a fact. He also beat Lewis whatever that amounts to. Lewis was taught a side kick that is untelegraphed. He used to break peoples ribs in "point fighting" with this kick. It is sort of in between a back and side kick...more of a back kick or what is sometimes called a mule kick.

You misunderstood my point about HOW Karate and Muay Thai are similar: They are both pure arts. That was my point. It is relevant because: When a Gracie says "we beat all arts in our contest" they are beating up kick boxers...many of whom claim to be a Muay Thai or karate stylist. Muay Thai stylists and Karate used to fight have never fought in these events. That was the point.

You have to have been part of the people that fought in those circles unfortunately... I can't really show you proof, aside from fighting people from both areas, teaching on both coasts, including being a guest of honor at the first officially sanctioned professional full contact MMA card held in San Francisco...thank you very much... East Coast was always more brutal. But fighting dojo wars in Baltimore never got the press that big tourney promoters got on the Left Coast.

[ShoulderRoll]

The West Coast is just more well known... You would have to trust me on that one being part of both communities at various times, and I understand your arguing a point and that would be a concession, thats cool. Also your mixing up things Shoulder. For example, Parker was never a fighter... Never fought in the tourneys. Interesting teacher, quick big man.

I will tell you why lewis was so highly regarded and it has nothing to do with his winning at kick boxing. Wallace was better in that rhealm and was never beat because no one could get past his round kick... Thats a fact. He also beat Lewis whatever that amounts to. Lewis was taught a side kick that is untelegraphed. He used to break peoples ribs in "point fighting" with this kick. It is sort of in between a back and side kick...more of a back kick or what is sometimes called a mule kick.

You misunderstood my point about HOW Karate and Muay Thai are similar: They are both pure arts. That was my point. It is relevant because: When a Gracie says "we beat all arts in our contest" they are beating up kick boxers...many of whom claim to be a Muay Thai or karate stylist. Muay Thai stylists and Karate used to fight have never fought in these events. That was the point.

You have to have been part of the people that fought in those circles unfortunately... I can't really show you proof, aside from fighting people from both areas, teaching on both coasts, including being a guest of honor at the first officially sanctioned professional full contact MMA card held in San Francisco...thank you very much... East Coast was always more brutal. But fighting dojo wars in Baltimore never got the press that big tourney promoters got on the Left Coast.

-Parker wasn't a competitor but his Long Beach International Karate Championships were once the premier tournament of their day. Which is why mentioning him was relevant.

-You glossed over the fact that Joe Lewis won 11 consecutive grand championships in a row without a loss. Is that still a record? It might be. I think it's safe to say that he outranks you if we are going to resort to "appeal to authority" arguments. This was a man that completely dominated the point karate world...yet he still thought it ****** and saw the need to come up with American kickboxing to improve on it. That says it all.

-Royce Gracie beat Minoki Ichihara in UFC 2. He was a karate competitor from Japan.

[billeau2]

-Parker wasn't a competitor but his Long Beach International Karate Championships were once the premier tournament of their day. Which is why mentioning him was relevant.

-You glossed over the fact that Joe Lewis won 11 consecutive grand championships in a row without a loss. Is that still a record? It might be. I think it's safe to say that he outranks you if we are going to resort to "appeal to authority" arguments. This was a man that completely dominated the point karate world...yet he still thought it ****** and saw the need to come up with American kickboxing to improve on it. That says it all.

-Royce Gracie beat Minoki Ichihara in UFC 2. He was a karate competitor from Japan.

Yes Parker was a promoter and a teacher. In the days when guys fought before kick boxing, winning was not really such a major thing. Everyone knew each other, some guys fought better, but everyone fought hard... Joe Lewis had an outstanding side kick, he won a lot on that technique. Wallace had a better record, at least in kick boxing.

You don't really understand rank I suspect... He was certainly a much more widespread competitor and a more well known innovator... I have my fans and I did my own service to the cause, I have no jealousy towards lewis.

Look Shoulder, I explicitly did not make an appeal to authority. I tongue in cheek mentioned that I could...If I did you would find yourself sadly outgunned, i am not. BUT for me to be honest and treat you as a friend I do have to be honest. It puts me in a slight rock and hard place... You really do place way to much emphasis on Lewis. You have not even mentioned Wallace! Wallace would be a much better person for your cause frankly.

I saw that match and I saw the introduction of the Tokyo Karate man...He was garbage, did you watch his matches? they would support your contention lol. He was a bouncy bouncy fighter...

My point is the real guys who use the art to fight are not well known... they were never a commercial success. You say that Lewis dominated the point karate world...well thats a very nebulous statement. Lewis and Wallace were well known and indeed very succesful at fighting in the ring.

Just do me one favor... I know you like Lewis, but at least look up John Blume, a student of Mas Oyama... That was a fighting karate man... Unfortunately Riley Hawkins has no internet presence, except a pic I have of him standing with Norris and Lee... You might get some internet info on Arnold Mitchell as well...a man who went hammer and tongs with my teacher Willie Ben.

I will make you a deal...look some of these people up mentioned above, You will learn something in this debate... and in return I will concede to you that lewis was the all time greatest karate man of all time no caveats. He was the mankiller! No one stood a chance...unless they were a mediocre boxer, then Lewis would be toast...

Fair enough?

[ShoulderRoll]

Yes Parker was a promoter and a teacher. In the days when guys fought before kick boxing, winning was not really such a major thing. Everyone knew each other, some guys fought better, but everyone fought hard... Joe Lewis had an outstanding side kick, he won a lot on that technique. Wallace had a better record, at least in kick boxing.

You don't really understand rank I suspect... He was certainly a much more widespread competitor and a more well known innovator... I have my fans and I did my own service to the cause, I have no jealousy towards lewis.

Look Shoulder, I explicitly did not make an appeal to authority. I tongue in cheek mentioned that I could...If I did you would find yourself sadly outgunned, i am not. BUT for me to be honest and treat you as a friend I do have to be honest. It puts me in a slight rock and hard place... You really do place way to much emphasis on Lewis. You have not even mentioned Wallace! Wallace would be a much better person for your cause frankly.

I saw that match and I saw the introduction of the Tokyo Karate man...He was garbage, did you watch his matches? they would support your contention lol. He was a bouncy bouncy fighter...

My point is the real guys who use the art to fight are not well known... they were never a commercial success. You say that Lewis dominated the point karate world...well thats a very nebulous statement. Lewis and Wallace were well known and indeed very succesful at fighting in the ring.

Just do me one favor... I know you like Lewis, but at least look up John Blume, a student of Mas Oyama... That was a fighting karate man... Unfortunately Riley Hawkins has no internet presence, except a pic I have of him standing with Norris and Lee... You might get some internet info on Arnold Mitchell as well...a man who went hammer and tongs with my teacher Willie Ben.

I will make you a deal...look some of these people up mentioned above, You will learn something in this debate... and in return I will concede to you that lewis was the all time greatest karate man of all time no caveats. He was the mankiller! No one stood a chance...unless they were a mediocre boxer, then Lewis would be toast...

Fair enough?

Are you saying that you are even in the same ballpark as a Joe Lewis when it comes to standing in the karate world?

John Blume? Do you mean Jon Bluming? If so I'm very familiar with him already. He actually gave a 9th degree black belt to the founder of Daido Juku karate.

The same Daido Juku karate that was the style of Minoki Ichihara from UFC 2.

I don't mean this in a mean-spirited way but your arguments are typical of the stubborn traditionalists that had their world turned upside down by the Gracies.

Realistic fighting is here and it's here to stay my friend.

Even I'm not immune to the revolution, as much as I adore boxing and it's effectiveness I'm smart enough to know that I would get my ass handed to me on the ground. Which is why I cross train in BJJ and MMA from time to time when given the chance.