Why is Tunney a great heavyweight?

[HOUDINI563]

That revisionist opinion of Louis is so ridiculous and void of historical accuracy one would need to be a real looney to believe it.

Dempsey was much quicker than Marciano and he hit like a hammer. Sharkey stated that “when Dempsey hit you to the body it felt as if his fist came out your back”. That combination of foot and hand speed and punching power would put most fighters of the defensive. Not doing so would potentially mean a ko loss very quickly. Dempsey was looking to get opponents out of there as quickly as possible.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Ok fine then.

If Dempsey fought Joe Frazier he would definitely put him 100% on the defensive. Frazier never fought like that, but he never fought anyone like Dempsey so...

You see why this doesn’t make sense?

Picking Dempsey is fine. Picking Dempsey to put Charles in survival mode? Nah not happening. We have plenty of evidence from Charles career that that isn’t how he fought, even when losing, even past prime fighting a mauling destroyer like Marciano (even if you think Dempsey is better).

Have you also never seen Frazier fight? He was a notoriously slow starter and easily hurt.

He was rattled badly by Quarry. And almost stopped by Ali, of all people, on the 2nd round of the rematch.

Jack stops him early. I very much do believe Charles lasts longer than Frazier.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Well, werent they?



You are helping my point to be honest. Taking rounds off Louis was not a special achievement. It happened. Only a few lasted the distance for those won rounds to count for anything. Godoy, Walcott did in their first fights with Joe, Farr did, Conn did not. He was knocked out. Again Im not trying to take away from Conn, Ive been praising him for years to people who only know him as a Louis opponent, but lets not overrate what he did either and act like it was unachievable for someone like Charles, the greatest LHW of all time, and HW champion, to do the same thing.



Well, you said that there was no rumour of him trying to cut weight, im saying that its there from his own mouth.

Louis faded badly after 5/6 rounds (iirc), this is clear. This is why I find it believable that he had ****ed up his prep for the fight. Cutting 5lbs may be easier for a big man, but for someone like Louis who has never had to cut weight, who would be fighting someone who would be in top form, it would make a difference. Also possible imo, bearing in mind that he took Conn that lightly, is that he didnt push himself all that hard in camp thinking it would be a quick KO.

Thats exactly what it looks like to me on film. A fighter who thought it would be a quick KO, being taken to deep waters when he wasnt prepared to swim, but eventually finding the punches he needed to end the fight.

Nothing you have said aligns with common experience or what is witnessed on film, at least not your explanations. You're asking a lot of your audience to entertain those notions.

Usually the simplest answers are the truest:

- Louis had subpar defense and was regularly clipped. Big punchers hurt him; he was fortunate/skilled enough to put them away before they could finish the job against him first.

- Conn was doing the unthinkable. He was beating Joe at his own game. (Turns out he was doing to well for his own good). This wasn't an off-night for Joe. Now, if Conn DID Box, out of character as it may have been, he very well may have won. Pure-Boxers weren't appreciated then, as they are now, so it's not a guarantee that he'd upset the Champion by getting on his bike to survive the fight. But a change in strategy could've definitely won Conn the night.

- Louis didn't come in before 200 pounds. That's a myth. He looked very fit. He needed to be his trimest as Conn was much more nimble than Galento and Buddy. He was also fit enough to fight, unlike the Maxes.

Joe's scoring to the body, but missing the headshots. That kind of high activity will exhaust anyone. Conn's strength was sapped, sure. But he went for the kill believing it was in reach. Go big or go home. If he were aware of how resilient Joe really was, he lays off the gas a little and leaves Champion.

- Calling Charles the LHw GOAT is anachronistic. Calling him better at LHw than Hw is revisionist. Saying he lost his fire after Baroudis death is perpetuating myth. Suggesting he'd out-box Louis is just bogus.

How do we know? His own record says otherwise.

Charles was robbed, at best, against crude Elmer Ray when fighting defensively. I can believe he won. I can't believe he was doing anything resembling a Willie Pep impersonation. Charles didn't have Conn's wheels and his offense was highly dependent on opponents being willing to block punches with their face and offer little meaningful offense in return.

See how much more seemless the answers are when you adhere as closely as possible to what's actually known?

[Rusty Tromboni]

Its funny about Dempsey. If you took all the boxing prophets, the trainers, the analysts...and saw which fighter was considered unparalleled as a heavy weight, I suspect Dempsey would be the winner. I say this because many of these guys thought Dempsey better than Louis when Louis was beating everyone.

Yet there are those now who say his career was built on marketing and looking like he wanted to fight guys while finding a way out...

How could these two camps be so polarized?

That sounds right. Some possibly over-glorified him, too. Of course, I seem to recall one of Jacks trainers suggesting he'd LOSE to Joe, falling victim to his superior jab. Makes a lot of sense at face value.

But what do we really need other people's onions for when we can think and look for ourselves.

Watch the refurbished footage of Dempsey, Tunney and Louis. Tell me then what hope Louis has of beating those speedsters.

[billeau2]

That sounds right. Some possibly over-glorified him, too. Of course, I seem to recall one of Jacks trainers suggesting he'd LOSE to Joe, falling victim to his superior jab. Makes a lot of sense at face value.

But what do we really need other people's onions for when we can think and look for ourselves.

Watch the refurbished footage of Dempsey, Tunney and Louis. Tell me then what hope Louis has of beating those speedsters.

One does not have to accept as gospel any opinion. I went at it hard with Clompton here... he is indeed an expert, and...there are other experts who have a different opinion of Dempsey.

Circa the mid eighties, there were still men around who had seen Dempsey, Louis, and Tyson fight among others. I do take their opinions seriously because they studied the game, they saw things I did not, knew the people behind the name, etc.

Seriously...and I am not busting balls here: Is it so hard for you to respect the opinions of men who saw things, studied boxing, and weighed in on the best fighters? Again, not saying one must agree 100% and as I told Clompton, there are dueling opinions... But some opinions are better than others.

[Rusty Tromboni]

One does not have to accept as gospel any opinion. I went at it hard with Clompton here... he is indeed an expert, and...there are other experts who have a different opinion of Dempsey.

Circa the mid eighties, there were still men around who had seen Dempsey, Louis, and Tyson fight among others. I do take their opinions seriously because they studied the game, they saw things I did not, knew the people behind the name, etc.

Seriously...and I am not busting balls here: Is it so hard for you to respect the opinions of men who saw things, studied boxing, and weighed in on the best fighters? Again, not saying one must agree 100% and as I told Clompton, there are dueling opinions... But some opinions are better than others.

Which is why I frequently cite coaches .... and almost always pair the citation with a caveat.

Do you know how credible eye witness testimony is in court? Essentially, it's not.

[HOUDINI563]

Fleischers opinion of this mythical matchup seemed to change over time. He implied in the late 50’s that Louis slow start and Dempseys early mad rush would lead to a Dempsey win. Flash forward to the late 60’s and Nat explained that both fighters hit equally hard but Louis was the greater overall boxer. He chose Louis to KO Dempsey in six rounds.

Arcel felt Ali, Louis and Dempsey were top three at heavyweight but favored Dempsey over Louis.

Really it’s a fools game to try to minimize how great these ATG fighters were. Their should be no surprise no matter the outcome. We are talking very high level ATG fighters here.

[ShoulderRoll]

Arcel felt Ali, Louis and Dempsey were top three at heavyweight but favored Dempsey over Louis.

And notice how Marciano was not on that list.

Compared to today where seemingly everyone puts Rocky ahead of Dempsey. Everyone who wasn't around to see them both.

[HOUDINI563]

Marciano was also a great fighter. You do not find any heavyweight today with his attributes. Certainly Dempsey was nearly always favored in mythical matchups up until the 70’s. Since then as more years go by Marciano is favored. This is a function of all the eye witnesses of Dempseys greatness passing away. Now all that’s left is grainy hard to follow film footage of Dempsey and very clear film footage of Marciano. Thus the revisionists rule.

It would have been a great fight however as long as it lasted!

[QueensburyRules]

And notice how Marciano was not on that list.

Compared to today where seemingly everyone puts Rocky ahead of Dempsey. Everyone who wasn't around to see them both.

- -IBRO rates them ahead of Rocky and always has.