Cooney vs. Mercer

[Rusty Tromboni]

Trombone gives the last word on everything like it was old hat. He is sorry he sounds so flippant. The only way he can get your attention is to make outlandish statements and claims. He thought you knew Robinson got famous beating up a bunch of small guys and Liston was most overrated ever. He doesn't just say, "Mickey Walker was tough." He announces he is the toughest man to ever shìt through a meat cornhole."

Oh, Mr. Humphries, whatever has gotten in to you!? Did you have a second bowl of Fruity Pebblesthis morning?

Who was Robinson's best win? Why is it the first time we have footage of him entering the ring against someone his own size, we see him being dragged out after taking a body shot (a fight he was winning no less). Have you not see his record? Have you not seen the Angott and Basilio fights?

Show men anything more impressive than Walker battling Sharkey and Schmelling.


Please, disprove my comments. I'd love the challenge. Iam very much open to others' opinions. Especially yours, because let's be honest, we know the only thing that excites you about Boxing is the sweaty, ripped, half-naked men.

I don't mean to sound mean and unsympathetic. After all, with Christmas past, Fruit Cake Season is over, and you must feel very out of place.

Novices are overwhelmed and rattled by such certainty of absurd opinion from one who presents himself as an "old hand" around boxing and all related matters. Then they see other veterans treating this fellow like a visiting boxing scholar, and so ends their foray in the History section, over from NSB for a tryout.

Prove to me Liston isn't overrated.

Please, what was his best win?

How do you explain away his performance against that very raw version of Cassisus Clay?

[billeau2]

- We saw Liston play 12 rounds of tag with Eddie Machen. (Liston was the only one who was ever "It").

- We also saw Liston nearly run out of the ring by Cleveland fookin Williams (ya know, the poor man's Frank Bruno).

- He also let both a very limited Cassius Clay and Leotis Martin off the hook, only for each man to turn the tables and stop HIM.

No way does Cooney commit those blunders. No way did Liston ever do anything as impressive as stop Young or Norton. Hell, Cooney's losing effort to Holmes far exceeds anything Liston ever did.

The fact that you are defending Liston and questioning COoney, when the evidence is so readily available, only proves my point.

I am going by observing the men fight. You are characterizing fighters using opinions as a basis for fact. Most people would not consider cleveland williams as you have....just as an example. I also made a point about the general way heavyweight competition gets "characterized" to address this point.

I don't mind your characterizations, hell...half the time I can't even spell the word "characterisations!" I find your characterizations humerous and often they contain a bit of truth, whatever that is... BUT Trombone, they are not facts. Lets be clear here. There is no basis for calling Williams a poor man's Frank Bruno as a determination of any sort.

When I look at Cooney and look at Liston I can see how they use their footwork, things they can, cannot do in the ring, etc. This forms a lot of my opinions because they are based on visual evidence.

[billeau2]

Trombone gives the last word on everything like it was old hat. He is sorry he sounds so flippant. The only way he can get your attention is to make outlandish statements and claims. He thought you knew Robinson got famous beating up a bunch of small guys and Liston was most overrated ever. He doesn't just say, "Mickey Walker was tough." He announces he is the toughest man to ever shìt through a meat cornhole."

Novices are overwhelmed and rattled by such certainty of absurd opinion from one who presents himself as an "old hand" around boxing and all related matters. Then they see other veterans treating this fellow like a visiting boxing scholar, and so ends their foray in the History section, over from NSB for a tryout.

Yes indeed. The trombone is that kind of instrument...It is a damn Baritone with sass, and that slide...Really? You couldn't invent the trombone! While all the other instruments use precision, have a clean sound, confident in their place on the scale...With a few valves to make things fly... Here comes the Trombone with its slide! Ahh but lefty? What New Orleans funeral would be complete without the Trombone?

Rusty is a contrarian to the core. Sometimes it gets annoying for sure... I get it.

[billeau2]

- We saw Liston play 12 rounds of tag with Eddie Machen. (Liston was the only one who was ever "It").

- We also saw Liston nearly run out of the ring by Cleveland fookin Williams (ya know, the poor man's Frank Bruno).

- He also let both a very limited Cassius Clay and Leotis Martin off the hook, only for each man to turn the tables and stop HIM.

No way does Cooney commit those blunders. No way did Liston ever do anything as impressive as stop Young or Norton. Hell, Cooney's losing effort to Holmes far exceeds anything Liston ever did.

The fact that you are defending Liston and questioning COoney, when the evidence is so readily available, only proves my point.

Rusty

You never addressed my point about the general level of competition we see in the heavyweight division. It is something to consider...

[Rusty Tromboni]

I am going by observing the men fight. .

No offense, but not really.

Like I said, Liston is aesthetically pleasing. He's technically sound, never off balance. He doesn't make too much waste of speed or energy, but his competition was subpar.

And even then, as I have clearly pointed out, he struggled.

Finito Lopez is a lot like Liston. But I don't see him topping any lists for top Flyweights.

Same with Marquez and Johnson, in their respective weight classes.

Why is Sonny exempt? If anything he's the least tested of the lot.

Cooney, for his part, was fairly limited. He looked like he might make a lot more of himself, but even then I doubt he'd be a top 10 Heavyweight. Mostly, his heart wasn't in it.

But the dude clearly was more dangerous than Liston, and even in losing to Holmes he showed more than Liston did across a complete career.

Again. I am the only one here referencing fights. Observable reality. You can cite all the opinions and legends you wish. But I am the only one providing fact.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Most people would not consider cleveland williams as you have....just as an example.

Did you take a poll?

Seriously, the dude is WORSE than the hype job Bruno. At least Bruno held his sh.it together against Tyson. That was actually a fine performance by both men. And he was keeping it competitive against Witherspoon... don't pretend Williams would have done as well.

Williams is grossly overhyped. Mostly, it's to serve arguments for Liston and Ali's greatness, based on their performances against him. He's a prop for bolstering others' records. And it works because most Boxing Fans are just chasing a story.

Boxing is like Politics. It's supposed to bring forward the best men to represent the public good, but it's usually little more than a popularity contest; and even on the good days it's littered with lies.

When I look at Cooney and look at Liston I can see how they use their footwork, things they can, cannot do in the ring, etc. This forms a lot of my opinions because they are based on visual evidence.

The best line of defense? Strip the opposition's words from his mouth.

I've cited the visual evidence. It's damming. Liston wasn't terrible, but he's made into a killer that he was not.

Cooney is reduced to a bum, when he was not.

Martin, Machen, Clay - they all had little trouble evading that footwork. Even when a Liston had them in the cross-hairs.

Again, Young, ya know the spoiler.... the guy who beat Ali and Foreman (climbing off the deck against the latter, no less)... was easily dispatched by a green Cooney.

Can you imagine Clay making the mistakes he made against Liston against Cooney!?!?!? Cooney's hook was far more ferocious than Cooper's. Hell, it was more ferocious than Frazier's for that matter. And we saw what Frazier's hook wrought against a MUCH better Ali in the FOTC.

Really, I don't know what else you want. The fights have been cited. The footage is readily available. That's not opinion. That's fact, even if inconvenient.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Rusty

You never addressed my point about the general level of competition we see in the heavyweight division. It is something to consider...

Either way I break it down, I can't throw you a bone here. Either way I cut it, it goes against you:

On a theoretical level:

I have spoken on this matter at length, but O.K.

Competition is often exaggerated. Macho Camacho beat Rosario, Duran and Leonard. How is that record any reflection of how much of a waste his career really was?

My opinions is similar to the one Apples' professed in this thread.

Cooney looks seriously dangerous, but still an unfinished article. Liston realized his potential: a more complete, but less dangerous fighter.

Harold Johnson was also a damn fine fighter, how did that work out against Moore? How did Moore's general superiority play out against the far more limited, crude and inexperienced (and smaller) Marciano?

On a practical level:

It doesn't matter because Cooney DID fight respectable competiton, and Liston did not.

Again, Liston, at his best, was embarrassed by a very primitive Clay. Cooney, still raw and seriously ill-prepared, lasted 13 rounds with one of the finest champions in Heavyweight history - a performance which many call that champion's opus.

Cooney could pick himself up off the canvas. And when he was stopped, he was on his feet. That's not Liston at all. Liston punked.

[billeau2]

No offense, but not really.

Like I said, Liston is aesthetically pleasing. He's technically sound, never off balance. He doesn't make too much waste of speed or energy, but his competition was subpar.

And even then, as I have clearly pointed out, he struggled.

Finito Lopez is a lot like Liston. But I don't see him topping any lists for top Flyweights.

Same with Marquez and Johnson, in their respective weight classes.

Why is Sonny exempt? If anything he's the least tested of the lot.

Cooney, for his part, was fairly limited. He looked like he might make a lot more of himself, but even then I doubt he'd be a top 10 Heavyweight. Mostly, his heart wasn't in it.

But the dude clearly was more dangerous than Liston, and even in losing to Holmes he showed more than Liston did across a complete career.

Again. I am the only one here referencing fights. Observable reality. You can cite all the opinions and legends you wish. But I am the only one providing fact.

I don't see competition as a major factor in this comparison, for all the reasons given. I do agree about cooney. As a matter of fact you describe something (the bolded) that makes sense to me because I could not put my finger on it. But you cannot pick and choose idiocycracies and call them facts.

[billeau2]

Did you take a poll?

Seriously, the dude is WORSE than the hype job Bruno. At least Bruno held his sh.it together against Tyson. That was actually a fine performance by both men. And he was keeping it competitive against Witherspoon... don't pretend Williams would have done as well.

Williams is grossly overhyped. Mostly, it's to serve arguments for Liston and Ali's greatness, based on their performances against him. He's a prop for bolstering others' records. And it works because most Boxing Fans are just chasing a story.

Boxing is like Politics. It's supposed to bring forward the best men to represent the public good, but it's usually little more than a popularity contest; and even on the good days it's littered with lies.



The best line of defense? Strip the opposition's words from his mouth.

I've cited the visual evidence. It's damming. Liston wasn't terrible, but he's made into a killer that he was not.

Cooney is reduced to a bum, when he was not.

Martin, Machen, Clay - they all had little trouble evading that footwork. Even when a Liston had them in the cross-hairs.

Again, Young, ya know the spoiler.... the guy who beat Ali and Foreman (climbing off the deck against the latter, no less)... was easily dispatched by a green Cooney.

Can you imagine Clay making the mistakes he made against Liston against Cooney!?!?!? Cooney's hook was far more ferocious than Cooper's. Hell, it was more ferocious than Frazier's for that matter. And we saw what Frazier's hook wrought against a MUCH better Ali in the FOTC.

Really, I don't know what else you want. The fights have been cited. The footage is readily available. That's not opinion. That's fact, even if inconvenient.

I would never call Cooney a bum and would not take away from his legacy, he was a fantastic fighter. But you are not consistent. You obviously have not looked at Young's record because if you did you would not cite him like you do. Yes Young was another fantastic fighter, but very inconsistent. He lost a lot to really bad opposition... See? being thorough is important here Rusty. actually Williams and Young have similar type records...And again, let me be perfectly clear here: Its a problem that runs deep in the heavyweight ranks...There are a lot of guys like Young and Williams, and Page, and Tubbs and Witherspoon...Fantastic fighters who were not always consistent.

Rusty, the way you pick and choose, among these standard, decent to fantastic fighters and try to make it seem that Liston was less consistent and fought worse comp than most heavyweights...much less Cooney, reminds me of those asian old ladies I encounter at the asian grocery store. It is obvious every Japanese eggplant is the same, but they never the less pick through each one! Trying to pull out a better one when they are all the same.

I hate to be adament here but I have to repeat this mantra: LOOK AT THE GENERAL LEVEL OF COMP for most great heavyweights, and it is filled with second rate fighters. The only exceptions I can offhand see are the seventies, Holyfield, and Lewis. Marciano fought great comp when it was past it, same situation though.

[Rusty Tromboni]

I don't see competition as a major factor in this comparison, for all the reasons given. I do agree about cooney. As a matter of fact you describe something (the bolded) that makes sense to me because I could not put my finger on it. But you cannot pick and choose idiocycracies and call them facts.

And yet that doesn't change the fact that Cooney had more obstacles to his success. And Liston himself lost his passion for the sport when he was defeated.

Cooney does look more dangerous than Liston, and proved himself more than Liston did. Liston can only claim two things: 1) a championship belt; 2) more time committed to the sport before running into his boogeyman.

I would never call Cooney a bum and would not take away from his legacy, he was a fantastic fighter. But you are not consistent. You obviously have not looked at Young's record because if you did you would not cite him like you do. Yes Young was another fantastic fighter, but very inconsistent. He lost a lot to really bad opposition... See? being thorough is important here Rusty. actually Williams and Young have similar type records...And again, let me be perfectly clear here: Its a problem that runs deep in the heavyweight ranks...There are a lot of guys like Young and Williams, and Page, and Tubbs and Witherspoon...Fantastic fighters who were not always consistent.

Rusty, the way you pick and choose, among these standard, decent to fantastic fighters and try to make it seem that Liston was less consistent and fought worse comp than most heavyweights...much less Cooney, reminds me of those asian old ladies I encounter at the asian grocery store. It is obvious every Japanese eggplant is the same, but they never the less pick through each one! Trying to pull out a better one when they are all the same.

I hate to be adament here but I have to repeat this mantra: LOOK AT THE GENERAL LEVEL OF COMP for most great heavyweights, and it is filled with second rate fighters. The only exceptions I can offhand see are the seventies, Holyfield, and Lewis. Marciano fought great comp when it was past it, same situation though.

LOL, who did Williams beat!? What performance can you cite that proves he was anything more than a hype job? Certainly nothing that matches even Bruno's losing efforts to Tyson and Witherspoon (great Heavyweights). Williams was KO'd by a Light HEavyweight, for God's sake.

As for Young, well, I guess you know better than the writers for RING Magazine who watched him ring-side? They named him Comeback Fighter of the YEar. I dunno whose record you're referencing, but check the page header: it's not Youngs.

He beat Foreman and Ali. He had his off nights, but that clearly wasn't the case against Cooney (he simply ran into a MUCH better man). And he rattled off a series of wins, rebounding from that loss. So he wasn't washed up when Cooney fought him. And again, much better than anyone Liston beat. Definitely better than MAchen.

Holmes at his zenith was also far, far superior to the Cassius Clay that Liston fought.

Trying to dismiss the disparity in competition is as blatant a denial of facts, and plea for opinion, as anything I can think of.