Primo Carnera- The First man to unify all major titles at HW?

[QueensburyRules]

I'm actually just gathering old timey KOs for an old timey KO reel. Cause guys like Burns only have two or three fights on film I can't do a boxer by boxer project. The first few wouldn't have enough footage to warrant a KO reel or even a highlight reel.


So I'm going through them, noticing all sorts of wrong on places like Wiki and Boxrec and I just wanted to run a few things by folks rather than doing proper research and dedicating time to it.

Mostly I'm interested in if Primo is the first and only man to unify all titles prior to the modern WBC-WBA and on ward era or if I'm missing something here.

Dempsey is listed as the first non-lineal champion. That's not true at all, Johnson was the IBU champion.

Schmeling was never the IBU champion while NYSAC or NBA champion. He lost his NBA/NYSAC titles then won the IBU title.

Sharkey was never an IBU champion but he was an American champion.

Primo killed a man then won the NBA and NYSAC off Sharkey in his next fight then in the next he won the IBU off Paulino Uzcudun. Primo is the first man to gather the belts is he not?

Baer and Braddock didn't get IBU recognition because George Godfrey beat Pierre Charles for that belt. I'm not sure why the IBU didn't transfer, maybe they did and stripped? I dunno, but I do know George Godfrey was their champion by 35.

I can't find anything on Louis and the IBU quickly but I know the ****s took over the IBU during his reign so I reckon he'd've been stripped even if they ever did officially award him. 42-46 is all Louis and there is no IBU. I'd be interested in that story.

Charles, as I remember the story, is not awarded the IBU because he chose to fight Louis rather than IBU contender Wood****. Savold beats Wood**** and picks up the IBU.

After him it's never mentioned again. At least not on quick-check resources like Wiki or Boxrec.

Does Marciano gain IBU recognition when he topples Savold? I dunno, I should but I don't.

I will do this research and tell this story if I have to but if any of y'all can save me the time, chime in some tidbits or tell the entire tale, I'd appreciate it.


I would agree the IBU isn't as major as the NBA or NYSAC but it was still a pretty legitimate title that had a lot of influence back in the day. The ****'s kinda ruined them, but before then they were European boxing. To say they're not important is like saying Primo himself or Schmelling is not important.

Also, it's just nice to note, the IBU was the first to disband the color line. That's why Godfrey is champion two years before Louis.


Edit- Thanks buds

- -Much ado about nothing!

Boxing too disorganized to keep records until recently.

Might as well ask how many lineal champs after James Figg?

Primo the best record of his era better than those in the current Hall of Shame...only in boxing!!!

[Marchegiano]

- -Much ado about nothing!

Boxing too disorganized to keep records until recently.

Might as well ask how many lineal champs after James Figg?

Primo the best record of his era better than those in the current Hall of Shame...only in boxing!!!

It is difficult, which is why I'd hoped someone could just tell me, but, I will do it if no one knows. It isn't impossible. To the bold behold:


James 'The First' Figg - 1719

Ned 'The Pipemaker' Sutton - 1724

James 'The First' Figg - 1725

Robert 'The Pugilist' Whittaker - 1725

Nathaniel Peartree - 1726

John Gritton - 1727

Tom 'The Claimant' Pipes - 1730

Bill Gretting - 1730

Tom 'The Claimant' Pipes - 1730

Bill Gretting - 1732

Tom 'The Claimant' Pipes - 1733

George 'The Barber' Taylor - 1734

Jack 'The Father of Boxing' Broughton - 1736

Jack 'The Norfolk Butcher' Slack - 1750

William 'The Nailer' Stevens - 1760

George 'The Collier' Meggs - 1761

George 'The Baker' Millsom - 1762

Tom 'The Pavior' Juchau - 1765

William 'The Dyer' Darts - 1766

Tom 'The Waterman' Lyons - 1769

William 'The Dyer' Darts - 1769

Peter 'The Irish' Corcoran - 1771

Harry 'The West Countryman' Sellers - 1776

Duggan 'Jack' Fearns - 1779

Tom Johnson a.k.a Thomas Jackling - 1787

Benjamin 'Big Ben' Brain - 1791

Daniel 'The ***' Mendoza - 1794

John 'Gentleman' Jackson - 1795

Thomas 'The Fighting Oilman' Owen - 1796

Jack 'Barty' Bartholomew - 1797

Jem 'The Napoleon of the Ring' Belcher - 1800

Henry "Hen the Game Chicken" Pearce - 1805

John 'The Potter' Gully - 1807

Tom 'The Black Diamond' Cribb - 1808

Tom 'The ******ia Slave' Molineaux - 1810

Tom 'The Light Tapper' Spring - 1823

Tom Cannon 'The Great Gun of Windsor' - 1824

Jem 'The Black Diamond' Ward - 1825

Peter 'Young Rump Steak' Crawley - 1827

Jem 'The Black Diamond' Ward - 1827

James 'The Deaf'un' Burke - 1833

Samuel O'Rourke - 1833

William 'Bendigo' Thompson - 1839

Ben 'The Torkard Giant' Caunt - 1840

Nick Ward - 1841

Ben 'The Torkard Giant' Caunt - 1841

Tom 'The Butcherman' Hyer - 1841

William 'Bendigo' Thompson - 1845

William 'The Tipton Slasher' Perry - 1850

Harry 'The Unknown' Broome - 1851

John 'Old Smoke' Morrissey - 1853

Tom 'The Redditch Needlepointer' Paddock - 1856

Tom 'The Brighton Boy' Sayers - 1858

John 'The Benica Boy' Carmel Heenan - 1860

Tom Curran - 1860

Sam 'The Staleybridge Infant' Hurst - 1860

Jem 'The Gypsy' Mace - 1861

Tom 'The Fighting Sailor' King - 1862

Joe Coburn - 1863

Joe Wormald - 1865

Jimmy Elliott - 1865

Jem 'The Gypsy' Mace - 1866

Mike 'The Deck Hand' McCoole - 1866

Tom Allen - 1869

Jem 'The Gypsy' Mace - 1870

Tom Allen - 1873

Joe Goss - 1876

Paddy Ryan - 1880



I've done that bud. In fact:

Archaic Era

Onomastos of Smyrna - 688, 684, 680, & 676 BC

Daippos of Kroton - 672 BC

Komaios of Megara - 652 BC

Pythagoras of Samos - 588 BC

Tissandros of Sicilian Naxos - 572, 568, 564, & 560 BC

Praxidamas of Aigina - 544 BC

Glaukos of Karystos - 520 BC

Philon of Korkyra 500 & 496 BC

Kleomedes of Astypalaia - 492 BC

Diognetos of Crete - 488 BC

Euthymos of Lokroi - 484 BC

Theagenes of Thasos - 480 BC

Classical Era

Euthymos of Lokroi - 476 & 472 BC

Menalkes of Opous - 468 BC

Diagoras of Rhodes - 464 BC

Akousilaos of Rhodes - 448 BC

Alkainetos of Lepreon - 444 BC

Kleomachos of Maiandros - 424 BC

Eukles of Rhodes - 404 BC

Demarchos of Parrhasia - 400 BC

Phormion of Halikarnassos - 392 BC

Eupalos of Thessaly - 388 BC

Damoxenidas of Mainalos - 384 BC

Illegible of Samos - 380 BC

Labax of Lepreon - 376 BC

Aristion of Epidauros - 368 BC

Philammon of Athens - 360 BC

Asamon of Elis - 340 BC

Mys or Taras - 336 BC

Satyros of Elis - 332 & 328 BC

Hellenistic Era

Archippos of Mytilene - 300 BC

Kallippos of Rhodes - 296 BC

Cleoxenus of Alexandria - 240 BC

Kleitomachos of Thebes - 212 BC

Roman Era

Epitherses of Erythrai - 184 & 180 BC

D [three illegible letters] gonos of Rhodes - 160 & 156 BC

Xenothemis of Miletos - 144 BC

Agesarchos of Tritia - 120 BC

Atyanas of Adramyttion - 72 BC

Thaliarchos of Elis - 32 BC

Nikophon of Miletos - 8 BC

Demokrates of Maiandros - 25, 29, & 33 AD

Melankomas of Caria - 49 AD

Herakleides of Alexandria - 93 AD

Marcus Tullius of Apameia - 141 & 145 AD

Photion of Ephesos - 173, 197, & 201 AD

Horus of Egypt - 364 AD

Varazdat of Armenia - 385 AD


I've done the ancients as well.


Define your terms and I'll tell you who the lineals are by your own terms.

It's sanctioning body history I'm needing help with. Mostly IBU.

[Dariusz]

But the "lineal" thing was kind of a given. Except for Hart and Schmeling (who both started a new lineage), every HW champion until then took the crown from the lineal champion.

Why ?

Carnera won the lineal title from Jack Sharkey. Sharkey won it from Schmeling.

[Bundana]

Why ?

Carnera won the lineal title from Jack Sharkey. Sharkey won it from Schmeling.

Why what?

As you say, Carnera beat Sharkey, who beat Schmeling.

Schmeling didn't defeat a lineal champion for the title, since the last champ before him, Tunney, retired without losing his crown.

Instead it was the winner of the first Schmeling-Sharkey fight, who started the new lineage.

But again, I'm sure you know this - so what exactly is your question?

[Dariusz]

Why what?

As you say, Carnera beat Sharkey, who beat Schmeling.

Schmeling didn't defeat a lineal champion for the title, since the last champ before him, Tunney, retired without losing his crown.

Instead it was the winner of the first Schmeling-Sharkey fight, who started the new lineage.

But again, I'm sure you know this - so what exactly is your question?

I asked why "given" to Carnera if he won it legally ? Granted, it could be sort of "given" to Schmeling because Tunney retired unbeaten.

[Bundana]

I asked why "given" to Carnera if he won it legally ? Granted, it could be sort of "given" to Schmeling because Tunney retired unbeaten.

Ok, I get you!

By "given", I don't mean that the title of lineal champion was actually given (or awarded) to him - but rather that it was an automatic label, if you took the title from a lineal champion.

[billeau2]

But the "lineal" thing was kind of a given. Except for Hart and Schmeling (who both started a new lineage), every HW champion until then took the crown from the lineal champion.

I was hoping you would make an appearance on the thread!

That is what I love about the lineal. Simple simple simple! based on skill and not sanctioning committees, and easy to understand how it works. Also, easy to haggle over the details.

[billeau2]

Ok, I get you!

By "given", I don't mean that the title of lineal champion was actually given (or awarded) to him - but rather that it was an automatic label, if you took the title from a lineal champion.

ha ha isn't that a hoot? You do not even need some sap to "give" anything. The very ease and efficiency of the lineal, like a new product from Ikea, messes with our need to complicate, embellish... It passes by itself! Rinse repeat.

[billeau2]

It is difficult, which is why I'd hoped someone could just tell me, but, I will do it if no one knows. It isn't impossible. To the bold behold:


James 'The First' Figg - 1719

Ned 'The Pipemaker' Sutton - 1724

James 'The First' Figg - 1725

Robert 'The Pugilist' Whittaker - 1725

Nathaniel Peartree - 1726

John Gritton - 1727

Tom 'The Claimant' Pipes - 1730

Bill Gretting - 1730

Tom 'The Claimant' Pipes - 1730

Bill Gretting - 1732

Tom 'The Claimant' Pipes - 1733

George 'The Barber' Taylor - 1734

Jack 'The Father of Boxing' Broughton - 1736

Jack 'The Norfolk Butcher' Slack - 1750

William 'The Nailer' Stevens - 1760

George 'The Collier' Meggs - 1761

George 'The Baker' Millsom - 1762

Tom 'The Pavior' Juchau - 1765

William 'The Dyer' Darts - 1766

Tom 'The Waterman' Lyons - 1769

William 'The Dyer' Darts - 1769

Peter 'The Irish' Corcoran - 1771

Harry 'The West Countryman' Sellers - 1776

Duggan 'Jack' Fearns - 1779

Tom Johnson a.k.a Thomas Jackling - 1787

Benjamin 'Big Ben' Brain - 1791

Daniel 'The ***' Mendoza - 1794

John 'Gentleman' Jackson - 1795

Thomas 'The Fighting Oilman' Owen - 1796

Jack 'Barty' Bartholomew - 1797

Jem 'The Napoleon of the Ring' Belcher - 1800

Henry "Hen the Game Chicken" Pearce - 1805

John 'The Potter' Gully - 1807

Tom 'The Black Diamond' Cribb - 1808

Tom 'The ******ia Slave' Molineaux - 1810

Tom 'The Light Tapper' Spring - 1823

Tom Cannon 'The Great Gun of Windsor' - 1824

Jem 'The Black Diamond' Ward - 1825

Peter 'Young Rump Steak' Crawley - 1827

Jem 'The Black Diamond' Ward - 1827

James 'The Deaf'un' Burke - 1833

Samuel O'Rourke - 1833

William 'Bendigo' Thompson - 1839

Ben 'The Torkard Giant' Caunt - 1840

Nick Ward - 1841

Ben 'The Torkard Giant' Caunt - 1841

Tom 'The Butcherman' Hyer - 1841

William 'Bendigo' Thompson - 1845

William 'The Tipton Slasher' Perry - 1850

Harry 'The Unknown' Broome - 1851

John 'Old Smoke' Morrissey - 1853

Tom 'The Redditch Needlepointer' Paddock - 1856

Tom 'The Brighton Boy' Sayers - 1858

John 'The Benica Boy' Carmel Heenan - 1860

Tom Curran - 1860

Sam 'The Staleybridge Infant' Hurst - 1860

Jem 'The Gypsy' Mace - 1861

Tom 'The Fighting Sailor' King - 1862

Joe Coburn - 1863

Joe Wormald - 1865

Jimmy Elliott - 1865

Jem 'The Gypsy' Mace - 1866

Mike 'The Deck Hand' McCoole - 1866

Tom Allen - 1869

Jem 'The Gypsy' Mace - 1870

Tom Allen - 1873

Joe Goss - 1876

Paddy Ryan - 1880



I've done that bud. In fact:

Archaic Era

Onomastos of Smyrna - 688, 684, 680, & 676 BC

Daippos of Kroton - 672 BC

Komaios of Megara - 652 BC

Pythagoras of Samos - 588 BC

Tissandros of Sicilian Naxos - 572, 568, 564, & 560 BC

Praxidamas of Aigina - 544 BC

Glaukos of Karystos - 520 BC

Philon of Korkyra 500 & 496 BC

Kleomedes of Astypalaia - 492 BC

Diognetos of Crete - 488 BC

Euthymos of Lokroi - 484 BC

Theagenes of Thasos - 480 BC

Classical Era

Euthymos of Lokroi - 476 & 472 BC

Menalkes of Opous - 468 BC

Diagoras of Rhodes - 464 BC

Akousilaos of Rhodes - 448 BC

Alkainetos of Lepreon - 444 BC

Kleomachos of Maiandros - 424 BC

Eukles of Rhodes - 404 BC

Demarchos of Parrhasia - 400 BC

Phormion of Halikarnassos - 392 BC

Eupalos of Thessaly - 388 BC

Damoxenidas of Mainalos - 384 BC

Illegible of Samos - 380 BC

Labax of Lepreon - 376 BC

Aristion of Epidauros - 368 BC

Philammon of Athens - 360 BC

Asamon of Elis - 340 BC

Mys or Taras - 336 BC

Satyros of Elis - 332 & 328 BC

Hellenistic Era

Archippos of Mytilene - 300 BC

Kallippos of Rhodes - 296 BC

Cleoxenus of Alexandria - 240 BC

Kleitomachos of Thebes - 212 BC

Roman Era

Epitherses of Erythrai - 184 & 180 BC

D [three illegible letters] gonos of Rhodes - 160 & 156 BC

Xenothemis of Miletos - 144 BC

Agesarchos of Tritia - 120 BC

Atyanas of Adramyttion - 72 BC

Thaliarchos of Elis - 32 BC

Nikophon of Miletos - 8 BC

Demokrates of Maiandros - 25, 29, & 33 AD

Melankomas of Caria - 49 AD

Herakleides of Alexandria - 93 AD

Marcus Tullius of Apameia - 141 & 145 AD

Photion of Ephesos - 173, 197, & 201 AD

Horus of Egypt - 364 AD

Varazdat of Armenia - 385 AD


I've done the ancients as well.


Define your terms and I'll tell you who the lineals are by your own terms.

It's sanctioning body history I'm needing help with. Mostly IBU.

Great response. Varazdat...what a beard on that guy! No literally in those days, they all had beards!! And when in a tight clinch, they would recite Armaic, the language of the Bible.

[Bundana]

ha ha isn't that a hoot? You do not even need some sap to "give" anything. The very ease and efficiency of the lineal, like a new product from Ikea, messes with our need to complicate, embellish... It passes by itself! Rinse repeat.

"It passes by itself"... perfectly put!