Which LHW has the best chance of beating Liston/Foreman

[billeau2]

Liston used his jab completely differently than Holmes. And his whole approach was diametrically opposed to Holmes'. Holmes had power, but not the kind to get anyone out of there early. He really depended on attrition. Liston was entering the ring to kill you. the fast ther better.

Spinks actually did more with less than almost any other great i can think of. Had he come of age in Liston's era he probably wouldn't have fought in any division other than Heavyweight. Just too big for 175.

Really, his lack of speed gets him killed against Liston. Tyson beat a 32 year old w/ only 30 something fights. How are you gonna make excuses for that?

Yes Liston's jab was different. That does not entirely invalidate dealing with a great jab but yes...acknowledged.

We see a different fighter in Liston Rusty. Liston was not dumb, had incredible economy of movement starting from his jab to his combinations, and was an incredible finisher.

Tyson put everyone down in front of him at that time. I think its relevant not making light of it with respect to judging Spinks.

[QueensburyRules]

So even after seeing:
- Bivins drop prime Charles in the opening stanza
- Johnson out-class him
- Walcott smear his face
- And Marciano commit a near homicide (texas chainsaw style)

you STILL think Charles doesn't rush into Liston's artillery, but instead magically turns into a 190 pound-version of Willie Pep!?!?!

Even though the footage tells you Charles can't beat Liston in a fire fight, you still pick him to go in there and win?

How did that work for Patterson?

That's like saying, "I was turned down at the Cadillac dealership today, but that's OK because tomorrow I'll be visiting the folks at Jaguar."



The Dempsey dethroned by Tunney wasn't the human saw he'd been when he flat-lined Wills, but he was still a much more mobile than Liston. Not to mention, he was much more creative offensively. Tunney, when seen in color, is easily recognized as a lythe fighter with masterful control of distance and position. Something the bigger Liston was too dumb and ponderous to overcome.

Not to mention, Jack said Tunney had the best punch of any opponent he faced. Definitely gonna punish Liston's mistakes in a way no other Light Heavyweight could.

- -You gabbing in yer sleep?

Dyslectic too?

Nay, Hopeless!

[billeau2]

So even after seeing:
- Bivins drop prime Charles in the opening stanza
- Johnson out-class him
- Walcott smear his face
- And Marciano commit a near homicide (texas chainsaw style)

you STILL think Charles doesn't rush into Liston's artillery, but instead magically turns into a 190 pound-version of Willie Pep!?!?!

Even though the footage tells you Charles can't beat Liston in a fire fight, you still pick him to go in there and win?

How did that work for Patterson?

That's like saying, "I was turned down at the Cadillac dealership today, but that's OK because tomorrow I'll be visiting the folks at Jaguar."



The Dempsey dethroned by Tunney wasn't the human saw he'd been when he flat-lined Wills, but he was still a much more mobile than Liston. Not to mention, he was much more creative offensively. Tunney, when seen in color, is easily recognized as a lythe fighter with masterful control of distance and position. Something the bigger Liston was too dumb and ponderous to overcome.

Not to mention, Jack said Tunney had the best punch of any opponent he faced. Definitely gonna punish Liston's mistakes in a way no other Light Heavyweight could.

Rusty:

Its funny you should say that regarding Charles, a great fighter but yeah... I always wondered why he fought Marciano the way that he did. I agree with you that if he fought Liston that way it would not end well for him. There is no reason to assume he wouldn't fight that way either, because he fought that way both times against Marciano.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Rusty:

Its funny you should say that regarding Charles, a great fighter but yeah... I always wondered why he fought Marciano the way that he did. I agree with you that if he fought Liston that way it would not end well for him. There is no reason to assume he wouldn't fight that way either, because he fought that way both times against Marciano.

When I tried defensive Boxing, I didn't feel confident moving on the back foot against guys who could pressure me. I wasn't in control. Being on the move against less assertive fighters, though, was a real buzz.

Just a gym jobber, but I wonder if even an ATG like charles didn't feel the same way. He's spoken of being a defensive great, but really we have no evidence he was. Being a "boxer" in those days didn't mean getting on your bike. Why do you think Pep was so maligned? And eveyone hates on Ray for his epic performance against Hagler?

Graham and Rodriguez were nothing like clinch and run b i o t c h Floyd, but spent their entire careers coming up short.

[billeau2]

When I tried defensive Boxing, I didn't feel confident moving on the back foot against guys who could pressure me. I wasn't in control. Being on the move against less assertive fighters, though, was a real buzz.

Just a gym jobber, but I wonder if even an ATG like charles didn't feel the same way. He's spoken of being a defensive great, but really we have no evidence he was. Being a "boxer" in those days didn't mean getting on your bike. Why do you think Pep was so maligned? And eveyone hates on Ray for his epic performance against Hagler?

Graham and Rodriguez were nothing like clinch and run b i o t c h Floyd, but spent their entire careers coming up short.

HOlyfield. Two times he listened to his corner and did not get into a 'rock em sock em robot' scenario. Those two times he fought brilliantly beating Bowe and Tyson. Didn't even need to listen for the second time he beat Mike lol.

[Rusty Tromboni]

HOlyfield. Two times he listened to his corner and did not get into a 'rock em sock em robot' scenario. Those two times he fought brilliantly beating Bowe and Tyson. Didn't even need to listen for the second time he beat Mike lol.

good point.

I feel like Holyfield-Bowe II is really the only one that shouldcount.

Mike was broken when he met holyfield, but vander still had the wherewithal to fight smart.

Out-boxing maricano required a pair of legs which charles then lacked. he probably always lacked them.

look at Olivares-Rose. Rose was weight-drained, but he lacked the punch to keep Reuben off him. That made the difference. Charles knew he had to stand up to marciano or risk getting run over.

[billeau2]

[QUOTE=Rusty Tromboni;20101729]good point.

I feel like Holyfield-Bowe II is really the only one that shouldcount.

Mike was broken when he met holyfield, but vander still had the wherewithal to fight smart.

Out-boxing maricano required a pair of legs which charles then lacked. he probably always lacked them.

look at Olivares-Rose. Rose was weight-drained, but he lacked the punch to keep Reuben off him. That made the difference. Charles knew he had to stand up to marciano or risk getting run over.[/QUOTE]

I think that was definitely part of his thinking. And yes...it does make sense that he felt that way.