Can you call this fight?

[QueensburyRules]

So he knew Harold Green but not Burley?

- -Burley never sprouted in front of Cerdan.

Nor did Burley ever sprout in front of fans.

[Rusty Tromboni]

- -Cerdan wouldn't even know who Burley was like most fans wouldn't have known him, and the few that did felt more like being at a funeral than a boxing match.

He did know Robby and Jake and that was the plan with bukos $$$.

Keeping it real...

That's a sobering thought. I'm glad you said it.

We didn't see the sparring session. So we have no idea what happened.

And honestly, I would love to see the source to this story.

People perpetuate myths all the time in "real life". It's even that conspiracy theories are spread on the internet: the greatest myth-busting tool ever invented.

Boxing is that much worse. There's plenty of opportunity to tackle myths head on, but instead they more usually spread like wild fire.

I am not saying that Cerdan didn't spar Burely. I'm not saying he didn't say he had no interest in fighting him. But I want to see the evidence, and build context.

I really can believe that, as you are suggesting, Burley was small fish at that point. In the words of Dana White, "not a needle-mover".

So he knew Harold Green but not Burley?

He knew Burley didn't put assess in the seats.

Cerdan was ready for Primetime. That window had closed on Burley's career.

Boxing people talk. Burley's reputation probably preceded him.

For snoozefests.

Again, Burley might have beaten Cerdan. Made very badly.

I have since come across "evidence" that Robinson agreed to meet Burley IN PITTSBURGH. But then last minute raised his price. That's actually something Ray often did. He drew a hard-bargain. So, again, not exactly dodging Burley. But it does appear su****ious.

Armstrong really did dodge Burley. And after Burley bested Zivic, his manager bought-out Burley's contract to prevent further meetings/obstruction to Zivic's career path.

- -Burley never sprouted in front of Cerdan.

Nor did Burley ever sprout in front of fans.

Yeah, Burley was a minimalist and that's impressive. But its funny he gets credit for it, while Hopkins and Mayweather (who at least established their careers as super stars) get skewered for it.

I am not saying life was unfair, but he seems not to have made things easier for himself.

Cerdan, conversely, was a crowd-pleaser. He took those risks. He went for the kill. And he didn't come-up short in his biggest fights.

I really don't wanna hate on Burley. But he has a great reputation for things he didn't do. But then a guy like Graham who actually did a lot (even if chronically ****ed-over by officials and the system) has vanished into the either. In those days, Graham, not Burley was considered the uncrowned king.

[GhostofDempsey]

That's a sobering thought. I'm glad you said it.

We didn't see the sparring session. So we have no idea what happened.

And honestly, I would love to see the source to this story.

People perpetuate myths all the time in "real life". It's even that conspiracy theories are spread on the internet: the greatest myth-busting tool ever invented.

Boxing is that much worse. There's plenty of opportunity to tackle myths head on, but instead they more usually spread like wild fire.

I am not saying that Cerdan didn't spar Burely. I'm not saying he didn't say he had no interest in fighting him. But I want to see the evidence, and build context.

I really can believe that, as you are suggesting, Burley was small fish at that point. In the words of Dana White, "not a needle-mover".




He knew Burley didn't put assess in the seats.

Cerdan was ready for Primetime. That window had closed on Burley's career.



For snoozefests.

Again, Burley might have beaten Cerdan. Made very badly.

I have since come across "evidence" that Robinson agreed to meet Burley IN PITTSBURGH. But then last minute raised his price. That's actually something Ray often did. He drew a hard-bargain. So, again, not exactly dodging Burley. But it does appear su****ious.

Armstrong really did dodge Burley. And after Burley bested Zivic, his manager bought-out Burley's contract to prevent further meetings/obstruction to Zivic's career path.



Yeah, Burley was a minimalist and that's impressive. But its funny he gets credit for it, while Hopkins and Mayweather (who at least established their careers as super stars) get skewered for it.

I am not saying life was unfair, but he seems not to have made things easier for himself.

Cerdan, conversely, was a crowd-pleaser. He took those risks. He went for the kill. And he didn't come-up short in his biggest fights.

I really don't wanna hate on Burley. But he has a great reputation for things he didn't do. But then a guy like Graham who actually did a lot (even if chronically ****ed-over by officials and the system) has vanished into the either. In those days, Graham, not Burley was considered the uncrowned king.

He made his American debut against Harold Green (who was not putting asses in seats either) instead of Burley. This doesn’t necessarily suggest a duck, but he certainly knew his chances of winning his debut were far greater against Green.

Burley didn’t play ball with the mob, so compound that with a style that wasn’t great for television and you have a great fighter who couldn’t be sold to promoters and networks.

[billeau2]

That's a sobering thought. I'm glad you said it.

We didn't see the sparring session. So we have no idea what happened.

And honestly, I would love to see the source to this story.

People perpetuate myths all the time in "real life". It's even that conspiracy theories are spread on the internet: the greatest myth-busting tool ever invented.

Boxing is that much worse. There's plenty of opportunity to tackle myths head on, but instead they more usually spread like wild fire.

I am not saying that Cerdan didn't spar Burely. I'm not saying he didn't say he had no interest in fighting him. But I want to see the evidence, and build context.

I really can believe that, as you are suggesting, Burley was small fish at that point. In the words of Dana White, "not a needle-mover".




He knew Burley didn't put assess in the seats.

Cerdan was ready for Primetime. That window had closed on Burley's career.



For snoozefests.

Again, Burley might have beaten Cerdan. Made very badly.

I have since come across "evidence" that Robinson agreed to meet Burley IN PITTSBURGH. But then last minute raised his price. That's actually something Ray often did. He drew a hard-bargain. So, again, not exactly dodging Burley. But it does appear su****ious.

Armstrong really did dodge Burley. And after Burley bested Zivic, his manager bought-out Burley's contract to prevent further meetings/obstruction to Zivic's career path.



Yeah, Burley was a minimalist and that's impressive. But its funny he gets credit for it, while Hopkins and Mayweather (who at least established their careers as super stars) get skewered for it.

I am not saying life was unfair, but he seems not to have made things easier for himself.

Cerdan, conversely, was a crowd-pleaser. He took those risks. He went for the kill. And he didn't come-up short in his biggest fights.

I really don't wanna hate on Burley. But he has a great reputation for things he didn't do. But then a guy like Graham who actually did a lot (even if chronically ****ed-over by officials and the system) has vanished into the either. In those days, Graham, not Burley was considered the uncrowned king.

He made his American debut against Harold Green (who was not putting asses in seats either) instead of Burley. This doesn’t necessarily suggest a duck, but he certainly knew his chances of winning his debut were far greater against Green.

Burley didn’t play ball with the mob, so compound that with a style that wasn’t great for television and you have a great fighter who couldn’t be sold to promoters and networks.

Market forces. At the time Pittsburgh was chock a block full of talented fighters who were not heavyweights. I actually sometimes think that the whole talent pool out of the area eventually became identified with Detroit at a later date. The cities are not too far apart, both of them at different times, have turned out many great fighters.

Given the talent, the sheer amount of fighters, there were, no doubt business concerns determining who fought who.

Regarding the mob, Pittsburgh was "mobbed up" including guys who did work for Murder Incorporated (Pittsburgh Phil Strauss among them). This is a correlation and certainly not proof of the mob in the process...But the means, and the motive where there.

[john l]

It is a tough one between two of the greatest but relatively unknown middleweights.

Can you provide any detail to Burley vs Cerdan?

Burley prob by decision. Cerdan was underrated a little I think, and of course his career was cut short but Burley was in another class imo. He fought a lot of VERY good black fighters that others esp the champs avoided. He had some losses but he fought often and against bigger fighters. Ezz Charles was too big(and damn good)and so was Holman Williams,Marshall and Moore, but he beat Williams a few times and nearly KOed Moore. His record vs top fighters was better then Cerdans wins imo. Also beat Zivic a few times. The story about SRR avoiding him is a bit misleading by 1942 he was at 160 while SRR was just moving up from lightweight by 41 or so. Nice MM though!

[john l]

A lot of the praise for Burley came from Archie Moore. He beat Moore all times I believe... 2 or 3? Here is the quote from Moore:

Archie Moore, the light-heavyweight champion who was defeated by Burley in a 1944 middleweight bout, was one of several fighters who called Burley "the greatest fighter ever."

I mean that is pretty conclusive and coming from a guy who is no Palooka!

Here is some footage: This is an analysis of the footage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81non05aKX4

And we have some of his fight with "Oakland Billy Smith" with no commentary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAUGAjwJgP4


My own feelings about this? The footage is no joke. There is not a lot of it, but damn if Charley's sense of distance, his footwork and his timing are not a rare set of qualities. From many accounts he fought to the level of his competition, but the subtle hints about his skills are like bloody prints on a murder scene they tell us a lot about the guy. Here are some incidentals:

1) The guy is QUICK, really really quick...Not unrefined speed, but there is no telegraph to his punches, and he is relaxed. Burley does not even need to lead with a jab he is so quick on the cross. Remember that the cross is generally a weak punch from a combat perspective because you have to punch across your body, your reach is s h i t, and you have to do something immediately afterwards not to get clobbered! burley never has a problem with it.

2) Defensively Burley makes you look bad. He was described by many as being unhittable. While I do not like to encourage hyperbole, the footage of this fight is convincing regarding this claim. And Burley does it with subtle, small movements, not by ambling across the ring...So he is always cutting the ring off, like a good boxer puncher does.

3) his sense of when to tie up, when to dip versus when to doo...looks like he was breast fed in the square circle. This is a guy who outfoxed Moore badly and it makes sense watching him work.

4) counter punching, when he does use the jab, etc... But that cross of his is lighting in a bottle. When a guy is that good with the cross he can set up the hook easily, he can catch the guy with a jab reversing the order: throwing the jab after the cross as the opponent tries to create distance.

I hate to hype fighters based on limited faculties, but I have to be honest with my own faculties which scream at me that this guy was as good as the legends proclaim. He never fought the comp to put him on those rarafied lists people like, but I would put Burley head to head with some of the best...allegedlly sugar Ray (at least his management) wanted nothing to do with Burley perhaps because they knew how slick he was. I could see Burley fighting a contest with Sugar Ray and making it a very competative fight.

Sugar Ray was quicker in all punches, but Burley has one of the fastest crosses I have ever seen. Defensively Burley might actually carry the advantage, both guys had great feet...Suger had that athletic ability which Burley could not eclipse...for all his abilities Charley was not a particularly athletic fighter. Sugar Ray had the advantage with power of course.

Cedan was not on the level of Burley. Not that I could see. Now some will say that watching Burley fight one fight is nothing much to see. But lets remember that there were fighters who believed that Charlie was literally the best, not only Moore.

For ****s and giggles take out a piece of paper and list the things one can see Burley do in the footage: He parries punches with the gloves, he uses angles with the upper body and torso, footwork with distancing making opponent just miss, all punches thrown, fights at all distances, accurate punching, quick punching, cuts the ring off, counters punches, uses the ring properly, sets traps (with the cross usually)... I guarantee that a thought out list would be an interesting proposition.

Nice post!! I agree Burley was a class ahead of Cerdan who was a very good and prob a little underrated. I think Burley only fought Moore once though(I could be wrong)but he nearly KOed him if I remember right.

[billeau2]

Nice post!! I agree Burley was a class ahead of Cerdan who was a very good and prob a little underrated. I think Burley only fought Moore once though(I could be wrong)but he nearly KOed him if I remember right.

Your correct JOhn. For some reason I always think he fought Moore more than once...

[QueensburyRules]

- -You accusing Archie of ducking the rematch?

[QueensburyRules]

- -Burley officially had 10 mgrs for his career, an instability that no doubt lost him a dozen big fights.

https://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Charley_Burley

[john l]

Your correct JOhn. For some reason I always think he fought Moore more than once...

Easy to get mixed up some times I know I do. Maybe its the Ezz Charles fights that were in your mind, he did fight him 3 times losing all three with last one ending in a KO.