Hagler-Seales draw... weirdest scores ever?

[ShaneMosleySr]

I posted this on NSB and was told it would fit better here...

Ray Seales was ringside for the showtime fight tonight and it was brought up that he held Marvin Hagler to a draw. So I went on boxrec to check the fight out.

The scores listed:

99-99, 99-99, 98-96 (I believe for Seales but I might be wrong)

If I’m not mistaken, that means two judges scored 8 of the 10 rounds even and gave 1 round each to both fighters. The third judge scored 7 rounds even, 2 for Seales and 1 for Hagler.

I can’t imagine there’s weirder scorecards out there than those three but I would love to here nominations.

[_Rexy_]

Based on what we discussed in that thread before the hijack, I'd be curious to know if it was scored using the 10 point must system or not.

Appears the fight was in Seattle, which just seems like an odd fight city to me. Don't know **** about the Washington Athletic Commission.

[_Rexy_]

Is there any video of this fight online? Maybe we can all just watch it and score it ourselves, compare the cards?

[Citizen Koba]

Is there any video of this fight online? Maybe we can all just watch it and score it ourselves, compare the cards?

Can't find any footage quickly, but reports vary. Some call it classic home cooking - Seales was from Tacoma... you can find lots of comments like this:

https://*********blog.com/2017/12/gr...marvin-hagler/

(fight game blog)

Three months later, he traveled to Seattle and was robbed for the first time; a controversial draw against Seales.

Others say it was a tough fight with Seales most likely winning the first half:


http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Ma...s_(2nd_meeting)

The Associated Press reported: "Hagler, who handed Seales his only loss in 23 pro fights, survived an early boxing lesson and came on strong at the finish. The rugged 158¼-pound easterner, who now has a draw after 19 straight victories in the ring, was unmarked at the conclusion. Seales, fighting at 157¾, had a badly bruised cheek and was bleeding from the nose."

Seales himself has this to say:

https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/other-sports/through-ups-and-downs-tacoma-boxing-legend-sugar-ray-seales-still-golden/

“We won that (the rematch), but Seattle didn’t understand that,” Seales said. “I was the hometown boy, I was supposed to get that edge. But they didn’t give me the edge. I won the first seven or eight rounds, and we battled the last (few). I should have gotten that one, and when Hagler left, he had his hat over his head. He knew he lost that (fight).”

Neither version really makes it any clearer why the judges gave so many 10 - 10 rounds though, unless that was just a thing back then - actually yeah. If you look at the scores on many of the must scored fights from the 70s (look at Seales vs Cooper or Seales vs Willie Warren) they don't add up as you'd expect. Many, many more draw rounds back then I think.

[Citizen Koba]

I posted this on NSB and was told it would fit better here...

Ray Seales was ringside for the showtime fight tonight and it was brought up that he held Marvin Hagler to a draw. So I went on boxrec to check the fight out.

The scores listed:

99-99, 99-99, 98-96 (I believe for Seales but I might be wrong)

If I’m not mistaken, that means two judges scored 8 of the 10 rounds even and gave 1 round each to both fighters. The third judge scored 7 rounds even, 2 for Seales and 1 for Hagler.

I can’t imagine there’s weirder scorecards out there than those three but I would love to here nominations.

I think I got your answer in a general sense - trawl through boxrec records of fights from the 70s and you'll see many MUST scores that look very weird to the modern eye. Dudes just gave a lot more Draw rounds back then... I'm sure one of the real history buffs could tell you more about when the ABC started changing their scoring recommendations and why.

[Rusty Tromboni]

I think I got your answer in a general sense - trawl through boxrec records of fights from the 70s and you'll see many MUST scores that look very weird to the modern eye. Dudes just gave a lot more Draw rounds back then... I'm sure one of the real history buffs could tell you more about when the ABC started changing their scoring recommendations and why.

You're right about weird scoring systems.

But I do agree w/ the generous use of the 10-10 round.

It also used to be that knockdowns didn't earn extra points.

It's good that that has been fixed. But not every round that features a KD has to be a 10-8 round: the rules explicitly state as much. Modern judges award 10-8 rounds like candy on halloween. there are plenty of times where 10-9 and 10-10 are suitable; Fury-Wilder RD12, and Moorer-Holfield being examples respectively.

[billeau2]

Yeah different conventions. And I agree with Rusty about the 10-8 rounds. I aso don't think draws are that bad however the attitude about a draw round has changed.

If one is a real fight fan one has to always watch the fight and look at it separately from how it was scored. Even when a guy wins because of boxing rules, one should do this and evaluate what happened on a more basic level...

If for no other reason that the hand is quicker than the eye and evaluating someone just slipping a blow, or negating the effects of a heavy blow is something judges cannot do.

True Story:

I was the president for the martial arts club we had in college and the head instructor. I got to the point where when we went to regional events in Baltimore, and Washington area, and my guys entered they would have to fight each other because no one could touch them. The Black Belts that I took in won tourneys... often embarrasing the tourny promoters.... But here is the point of mentioning all this.

I never, in all the time fighting in supposed full contact tourneys, failed to lose a match. I either got disqualified for grabbing the Gi,excessive contact (once only) or, when I was avoiding strikes, I did so in a manner where they just missed and the ref would call a point for the other guy...In all those lost matches? I think I got hit once!

So when I speak of officiating? I have my reasons lol.

[OctoberRed]

There were far more draws and even rounds back then. Very rare to score even rounds these days.