Boxing authorities quick guide. Clubs, Commissions, Sanctioning Bodies, Laws, etc.

[billeau2]

Wanted to mention one more thing about SAVATE

When we trace the different styles of boxing and, like a truck path with a Railroad, there is an intersection with fighting theory we will see many innovations that make perfect sense. So, in the Americas we had a robust tradition of Wrestling. In Brazil we see the development of different contests Vale Tudo (Anythng goes) the works (exhibition matches wrestling/ catch can etc)...Lute Livre, (joint locks) and of course boxing. In Brazil Judo entered the mix and these traditions would challenge each other in perpetuality all claiming as the Gracies did to be "undefeated." In fact the Gracies were taught a form of Judo initially, and this Judo was contested with folk wrestling, ect. There are no records that I can find of any sanctioned Thai, or professional boxer fighting a gracie member.

meanwhile in North America boxing and Jiu Jitsu via Judo met in the volcano island of Hawai. Hawai was hot!! you had Asian arts, Karate, Judo Jiu Jitsu (new forms Danzen Ryu Henry Cho)... and you had boxers. Out of this mix came fighting teachers like Ed Parker Kempo karate, and Henry Cho among others. And this takes us to the 60's where a small guy with incredible talent enters the scene of fighting theory. That was Bruce Lee.

Now here is the interesting thing: You have Lee, who was a street fighter, and a philosopher, a man willing to test and produce new methods that were not bogged down with unnecessary dogma. Jeet Kune Do was in fact more a statement of principles than an art per se, it was a plea for martial artists to take what was useful. Lee had the ear of the entire martial arts community and even the best martial artists of the time, men like Gene LeBell, Joe Lewis (another Joe Lewis not the boxer(s), Chuck Norris, etc acknowledged his skill level.

When Lee wrote his main tome "The Tao of Jeet Kune Do" he basically paid homage to a few arts in particular and this is where it gets interesting. Lee liked the punches of boxing. Boxing presented to him, the cleanest anatomical bare bones of a punch. Lee, like James Figg himself went back to roots and studied Fencing, for the timing and also for the straight lead. A punch that was eclipsed in sport fighting by the jab, but on the street, the lead, fighting with the strong hand forward and using it extended as a finishing blow, a jab to the eyes, etc... was Lee's preference. Lee also included some very basic grappling, probably because he was just starting to practice with LeBell, and learn these holds and locks.... Gene is a human encyclopedia of holds and locks, and knows more of these finishes, in Judo, and wrestling and anything in between, than any other 5 men alive today!

So... What other arts was Lee interested in? We had Wing Chun. The Wing Chun guard, the ability to block and strike as one movement, and The famous one inch punch all come from Wing Chun and Lee's time with Yip Man. Wing Chun, like the lead does not require pronation of the wrist. So one could strike from all ranges with the Wing Chun and Fencing/boxing methods reemployed by Lee in his quest....But there was one more art and many people don't realize this: SAVATE. Lee was big on Savate. Why? I mean Lee was exposed to amazing kicks in Tae Kwon Do... He was a personal friend of June Ree, why go to an obscure French foot boxing style?

Savate is a boxing form and it emphasizes explosive, whip kicks that take advantage of speed and little telegraphing. There are plenty of hooking kicks, leg kicks, groin kicks and head kicks in savate. The Savate fighters impressed Lee. So when we get to modern fighting theory and Lee we can see many connections to boxing, including the art of marseille france, the art of the dock strevedors and thiefs... The art that allowed one to use their boots as a deadly weapon. And an art that took a detour from boxing: Where as we see body weight and structure in the strong punches of Dempsey all the way through to Louis and we see Dempsey explicate these ideas....

Savate on the other hand? take a rock and put it in a sock and you have the savate kick. The punches really set up the kicks or are to finish because the kicks are what kills. You whip that kick out and snap it through the target. Funny enough Lee did this with his side thrust kick, along with a trick Lewis did as well, from the Okinawan Karate men: Not chambering the leg before the kick which telegraphs. Simply lifting it as the kick is delivered. But the Savate guys did not even use this kick replacing it with a pendulum kick similar to Capoera's back kick. this is called a mule kick by some. But the kicks in Savate are very dangerous and instrumental to modern fighting theory as explicated by Lee.

[Marchegiano]

Wow. Amazing breakdown of all these groups...that I largely despise & think hurt the sport lol.

Funny with the stuff about the WAA guy who got stripped for divorcing Sean O'Grady's sister.

And I'd never heard of the decade long period of only 4 rd fights in CA. Crazy sh^t.

Also I was unaware there were actual affiliations with so many national bodies with the main ABC groups. I noticed a trend of certain national title holders being ranked by main ABC groups, but didn't realize there was an official connection between them.

Great stuff to read though & see condensed into one ****** of consciousness like you did doe.

Wow! You edumacating me big time... Love (no ****) brother.

I appreciate it fellas.

That WAA nonsense, I don't even know where I got that from, but it popped into my head and is so damn funny I had to post it in there.

The affiliations are the worst. They pop up all the time, change places, change names, change meaning, and generally be a pain in the ass to follow.

[Marchegiano]

The Bold: excellent observations. Rough fighting has a few shall we say calling cards? Very rural areas in general, even to this day are simply more socially and economically repressed. Its mind boggling that in Baltimore City you actually have areas, pockets in the city with higher AIDs rates than Sub Sahara Africa, but its not the norm for cities. The norm is San Francisco where you have education and awareness.

If you go to small towns in Maryland, places off the Eastern Shore that are not moneyed for example, and...I would wager also in you neck of the woods, Florida in rural areas one will see real poverty on a scale that it does not exist in cities. Poverty and ignorance will breed brutality... We see this over and over. I have a gun that my wife's great grandfather used to kill 3 men, while himself dying of a gunshot during a feud. These feuds would be settled at the election booths in rural Louisiana... That was the recourse. Already by that time even the Wild West was being tamed!

Another particularly colorful area for the arts is Port cities because they attract many different fighting types. So, another boxing strain you might want to look at is French Savate which came to us via the rough and tumble city of Marse' France! This was a place where people came to blows about how to make the best Boulliabase! But Savate was an ingenious art where whip kicks and basic boxing blows were used with a minumum of head movement. Boots were often an augmentation for these blows. Savate was France's answer to her Anglo Saxon neighbors methods of fighting.

New Orleans probably had Capoeristas coming in from the Slave trade, an art which evolved in the cities of Brazil. Same MO... The original art, which one can research through information on the late Maestro Bimba, was a street fighting art, similar to rough and tumble in some respects. Everything from hiding razors in the toes and fingers, to using the body with maximum launch capability was used in the original art.

There are some arts that have been recreated including many involving the quarter staff, and many taking fencing styles and adapting them to the use of closer quarter tactics and weapons. The Bowie was made with that augmentation in mind.

Finally another big art that was present throughout all the Americas was folk wrestling: Catch Can, Lankishire, etc... these wrestling styles could involve blows as well... And They could incorporate even Ju Jutsu stuff the Portegeuse got from trading with the Japanese NOTE on this point: I actually have Japanese Sword manuels that incorporate Euro stabbing techniques learned from the Portuguese as well.

I guess the lesson here is that all these arts borrow from each other and adapt when they are used for combat purposes to the environment in which they are utilised. Sorry about the spelling, just wanted to get this out to you before I have to start the day here! Love your posts M!!

I can't hardly figure what my angle was last time, but I reckon in some manner I was going to talk about how according to Christopher Shelton the first century champion Demokrates was famous throughout most of the known ancient world. From Africa to China, which is quite the impact for a man never named or discussed in history classes.

Given this interaction happened so early on why is it Asia has no analog to boxing?

While I am not nearly as versed in traditional martial arts history outside of boxing as I am boxing, I am also a kinesiologist. One thing that attracted me to this sport over other combat sports is the kinematic chains produced in boxing.

I've always wondered, given the interaction between boxing and Chinese martial arts was already taking place in the first century why is it I see so few direct and pure kinematic chains in theses sports?

We don't actually do a lot of combat sports studies. Most Dr.s are both professionally opposed and the sports usually offend their sensibilities. So quite a lot of my estimation is more educated guess based on observation work than true science handed to me from authorities in the field.

To be clear I make prosthetics.

That said, from my perspective the highest amount of energy any human can hope to transfer into any body would be a strike that requires the entirety of the striker's body to work in unison and keep pure kinematic chains because of the Newtonian Law.

In boxing, those strikes from a medical professional's stand point are meant to take your head off. Energy starts at the foot, travels through the body and into the opponent reaction force hits the fist, has no where to go because the striker has already formed a pure kinematic chain effectively making himself a wall. With no where for the reactive force to be absorbed but the opponent receiving the blow. the opponent is forced to take the initial energy of the strike AND the reactive force it caused. Even the cuties hit hard because of it. Where as say Bruce Lee's back fist to the belly seems by design a strike that only cares to drive the initial force into the opponent given the second it causes a reactive force there is nothing to support the striker's fist and it bounces off causing the reactive force to be absorbed by the striker rather than the striked.

You spoke of pendulum and whips when speaking about kicking which makes a ton of sense when speaking about kicking. However a punch is a different monkey entirely. In my sig Wilder punches Washington and the energy from his own punch causes him to step backwards. If that was a backhand with a bent elbow, no matter how much pepper he put into it, he wouldn't be stepping back it'd've just bounced off.

That's a huge, just massive, difference in fundamental mindsets. Boxing is very clearly a war driven martial art. Get that sword into your opponent and keep moving seems to be the basic MO. Most MA's I can't figure out their very basic tactic...or a better wording may be reason for existing.

I know Asian MA are for self defense but I have always questioned the lack of pure kinematic chains. Seems like doing damage is a good defense to me. Seems like if I was going to **** a woman and she backhanded my belly I'd still be about to **** a woman but if she give me a proper right cross to the xiphoid process I, like any other man, would be gasping for air as she makes her escape.

Obviously boxing has it's less than pure punches, and traditional MAs do have some really excellent boxing-esqu punches, but the difference and why it exists has always had me asking questions. How is it Shotokan is able to capture so many good and pure punches and not utterly dominate the landscape?

Is it simply culture or is there something to these indirect strikes I may be missing? Seems like just on the surface of things a Shotokan master would lick most of the other MA masters given his theory is centered around damage and their's is centered around whatever makes a man believe a backfist to the belly is a good idea.

Why on earth would I ever back fist a belly I can easily uppercut? The back fist is going to eliminate some of the energy I created while the uppercut will add to it.

Seems like after a few thousand years of trial and error strikes that lack kinematic chaining would fall to the side in preference for strikes that do not but they haven't.

Even now in modern MMA I see just a bunch of strikes that has me thinking what the damn hell are these clowns thinking? One of my favorite has to be that hook that got popular at the lack 2000s era right around 2010ish where the strike would invert their fist, keep their arm perfecting straight, and swing a hook......what in the damn ****? How on in god's green earth does a man, a fighting man, hell a whole team of fighting men, their trainers, and the whole industry think this is a good idea? It's a terrible idea. You don't hardly see that punch anymore....probably because it was always a terrible punch that has never had a place in a fight.

I do try to respect MAs outside of boxing, but, it is hard to when most, not even half a good majority, of what you are seeing reminds you of a Newton's Cradle after a child has mucked up the strings and it can not longer form a good pure kinematic chain. So far Shotokan and Judo, even though Judo is not striking MA, have won my heart.

Oh, and like Judo, Sumo isn't very relative to this conversation but I do enjoy it. I understand their purpose, it's obvious. What the purpose of most of MA's is I don't really know. Self defense doesn't seem to be the real reason because most of them, from my perspective as a prosthetics inventor, are not very good at defending the self involved. They take needless risks.

I tried to write this respectfully. I don't dislike most MAs I just don't get them. If it came off as disrespectful I do apologize to any I may have offended.

[Marchegiano]

Bump.

I'm using the thread to help another thread, just makes it easier if I don't have to search it all the time.