Liston vs Frazier 1971

[uncle ben]

There were talks about a Frazier/Liston showdown for 1971. Had Liston not mysteriously died, how would this fight go?

Personally, I think the best case scenario for Liston at this point would be an early knockdown of Joe Frazier and losing a wide and decisive UD. Although, based on the Martin fight, I think Liston would have been beaten up and KO'd at this point and sent into retirement.

Now if it was a 1961 Liston, perhaps a different story.

[billeau2]

There were talks about a Frazier/Liston showdown for 1971. Had Liston not mysteriously died, how would this fight go?

Personally, I think the best case scenario for Liston at this point would be an early knockdown of Joe Frazier and losing a wide and decisive UD. Although, based on the Martin fight, I think Liston would have been beaten up and KO'd at this point and sent into retirement.

Now if it was a 1961 Liston, perhaps a different story.

I don't know if Frazier would KO an old Liston. Obviously there is a giant chasm as to how Liston's performance would be affected by father time. But this is an easy fight because George Foreman was laced up by Liston and fought using the template set... Frazier would have a similar contention with Liston, never a good style for Joe.

There might be some that would argue that a younger Frazier might have done better against Foreman, I am open to that argument to a degree... Everyone can respect Joe, he is in my opinion the closest thing we have to a Mexican styled great heavyweight fighter... He fought that way and was fantastic!

Left Hooks, coming forwards at all times, changing the speed and the position on the punches coming in, bobbing weaving slowly, drawing the man into chasing the head.... But one fundamental difference between Joe's style and Dempsey vis a vis Tyson is the foot speed. Dempsey's bob and weave was quick, it involved pivots and getting inside immediately against the man. Tyson did it also: You can watch him attack, coming in fast, then moving over to another position and starting the attack again.

The devil is in the details: Marciano and Frazier depended more on being relentless than fast. But there is always a chance of a big man catching you with his reach if you do not have the foot speed to get past that reach on the attack. Marciano to my knowledge never had to fight a big strong guy, and Frazier had his fights with Foreman... That is what I am going on here.

[HOUDINI563]

1971 is the Frazier that beat Ali. That Frazier stops Liston of 71 within eight rounds. We are talking an old shop worn Liston vs probably the best Frazier. Prime vs Prime I see a more competitive fight certainly but in the end Joe wears Liston down and takes his heart. Joes pressure is just too much over 15 rounds and Listons heart certainly is a question mark. Frazier by 12th round stoppage.

[GhostofDempsey]

Still a close and competitive fight. I would call it a 50/50 fight, but I can still see Liston being dangerous for Frazier. The style match-up would favor Liston.

[OctoberRed]

1971 is the Frazier that beat Ali. That Frazier stops Liston of 71 within eight rounds. We are talking an old shop worn Liston vs probably the best Frazier. Prime vs Prime I see a more competitive fight certainly but in the end Joe wears Liston down and takes his heart. Joes pressure is just too much over 15 rounds and Listons heart certainly is a question mark. Frazier by 12th round stoppage.

I think Houdini describes it best here.

[billeau2]

I think Houdini describes it best here.

If you accept that it means you disregard to one extent, or another, the Foreman Frazier fight. Nothing wrong with that, but just out of curiosity are you doing it on the grounds that Frazier was old against Foreman? because Foreman has similar attributes, similar style, and was influenced considerably by Liston.

Furthermore, Liston prime had great endurance, so how any fighter would have him gassing is beyond me.

Frazier would have to get past Liston's reach, would have to hit him enough... remember that Liston had a great chin...He would have to hit him and win rounds, despite the reach advantage. and Frazier was not really faster than Liston by much, if at all...

I think the world of Frazier and maybe he could find a way to do what no other guy did against Liston, and get inside and beat him to the body? I mean as much as I try I cannot see how Joe beats Liston prime for prime... Just trying to see what others see here that I am not seeing.

[billeau2]

1971 is the Frazier that beat Ali. That Frazier stops Liston of 71 within eight rounds. We are talking an old shop worn Liston vs probably the best Frazier. Prime vs Prime I see a more competitive fight certainly but in the end Joe wears Liston down and takes his heart. Joes pressure is just too much over 15 rounds and Listons heart certainly is a question mark. Frazier by 12th round stoppage.

Could you kindly enlighten me as to what fighter ever, in Liston's prime, give or take a few years... wore Liston down? and took his heart? Ill settle for "wore him down." Especially a fighter who was smaller than Liston? Educate me please.

[billeau2]

An Interesting Article about Liston!

This article shares the perspective of the fouf opponents, not named "Ali" that gave Liston some problems. Here is what I take from the article:

There was no one way to flumox Sonny. One guy was brawney enough, another guy skilled enough, (Marshall), etc etc.

https://www.si.com/vault/1964/02/10/...baffled-liston

[HOUDINI563]

Liston was pushed hard by Ali in fight 1. Probably the only time a top level opponent beat him up. What did he do? He quit. He not only quit but he quit sitting on his stool. He not only quit sitting on his stool but he quit sitting on his stool giving up the greatest prize in all of sports. Prime Frazier would take Liston deeper into the depths than Ali ever could. Liston would start well and then fade as Joe surged.

[HOUDINI563]

I used to but the Foreman/Kiston comparison. Not any more. Two completely different fighters. George was much more physical, larger, quicker. Liston more “technical”. Prime Liston was 6’1 and 212 pounds. Thus the size difference was not in any way overwhelming. Size in the hwt division is really the last thing to consider. Joe in his prime slipped jabs with ease. Note the high % of Ali’s jabs he slipped in 71. Well over 50%. Liston did not have movement to keep Joe off of him so once Frazier is inside he will do damage.